No Nato
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SAAMI specifically recommends against using 5.56x45 NATO in rifles chambered for .308 WIN. www.saami.org
Chad Young
New member
Bruegger-
I think you meant to say that .SAAMI specifically recommends against using 5.56x45 NATO in rifles chambered for .223 Remington, not .308 Win (which is 7.62x51).
I think you meant to say that .SAAMI specifically recommends against using 5.56x45 NATO in rifles chambered for .223 Remington, not .308 Win (which is 7.62x51).
OOOOOOOOPS! Duh!
Good catch. Was typing so fast, I stepped on my crank.
I of course meant "....in a rifle chambered for .223 Rem." Doh!
No SAAMI warning for using .308 WIN ammo in a rifle chambered for 7.62x51 NATO or "vicey-versey."
And if you're rollin' yer own, it don't matter anyway as Keith J sez. So I guess you can pretty much disregard my post and I'll just go back to picking my nose.
Good catch. Was typing so fast, I stepped on my crank.
I of course meant "....in a rifle chambered for .223 Rem." Doh!
No SAAMI warning for using .308 WIN ammo in a rifle chambered for 7.62x51 NATO or "vicey-versey."
And if you're rollin' yer own, it don't matter anyway as Keith J sez. So I guess you can pretty much disregard my post and I'll just go back to picking my nose.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
This is all pretty much due to the fact the M16 series has screwed a lot of people up. When is a .223 NOT a .223?
SAAMI specs asside - it is the SAME round with a warmer loading.
If your firing a real rifle - you have no worries.
If your firing a delicate little girly AR from the likes of Hesse - then your in for problems... even more than usual for the AR series.
SAAMI specs asside - it is the SAME round with a warmer loading.
If your firing a real rifle - you have no worries.
If your firing a delicate little girly AR from the likes of Hesse - then your in for problems... even more than usual for the AR series.
Ruben Nasser
New member
They are a bit different...
Please go to: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15031&highlight=223+vs+5.56
and: http://forums.ar15.com/Forum14/HTML/001085.html
"ACCORDING TO SAAMI (THE PEOPLE WHO SHOULD KNOW) THERE IS NO DIMENSIONAL DIFFERENCE IN .223 AND 5.56mm CARTRIDGES. THE DIFFERENCE IS IN PRESSURE LEVELS OF THE LOADED CARTRIDGES.
.223 is lower pressure (about 52,000 CUP) and 5.56mm is designated as higher pressure. SAAMI has long stood by their recommendation that 5.56 not be used in rifles labeled as .223 because of the risk of overpressure. It may never happen in your gun, but it's like using 38+P in a revolver designated as 38 only.
There are also differences in chambers. THIS IS ALSO NOT A SAAMI REGULATED DIMENSION. Military rifles and some others use a SLIGHTLY larger chamber to facilitate feeding/extraction, especially under sustained fire and in adverse conditions. Remember, the first and most important thing about a combat arm is RELIABILITY, thus, the larger chamber.
It's really usually only a matter of running a finishing reamer through the chamber after the rough reamer a few more times than usual to get a 5.56 chamber instead of a .223 chamber. THEY ARE THE SAME TOOLS. HOWEVER, some manufacturers use finishing reamers that are slightly larger, thus facilitating faster prodiction and lower tool wear."
Some manufacturers (like Ruger) used to chamber their guns for 5.56 to avoid problems, I don't know now. Many AR15s with 223 chambers have problems with military ammo.
Please go to: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15031&highlight=223+vs+5.56
and: http://forums.ar15.com/Forum14/HTML/001085.html
"ACCORDING TO SAAMI (THE PEOPLE WHO SHOULD KNOW) THERE IS NO DIMENSIONAL DIFFERENCE IN .223 AND 5.56mm CARTRIDGES. THE DIFFERENCE IS IN PRESSURE LEVELS OF THE LOADED CARTRIDGES.
.223 is lower pressure (about 52,000 CUP) and 5.56mm is designated as higher pressure. SAAMI has long stood by their recommendation that 5.56 not be used in rifles labeled as .223 because of the risk of overpressure. It may never happen in your gun, but it's like using 38+P in a revolver designated as 38 only.
There are also differences in chambers. THIS IS ALSO NOT A SAAMI REGULATED DIMENSION. Military rifles and some others use a SLIGHTLY larger chamber to facilitate feeding/extraction, especially under sustained fire and in adverse conditions. Remember, the first and most important thing about a combat arm is RELIABILITY, thus, the larger chamber.
It's really usually only a matter of running a finishing reamer through the chamber after the rough reamer a few more times than usual to get a 5.56 chamber instead of a .223 chamber. THEY ARE THE SAME TOOLS. HOWEVER, some manufacturers use finishing reamers that are slightly larger, thus facilitating faster prodiction and lower tool wear."
Some manufacturers (like Ruger) used to chamber their guns for 5.56 to avoid problems, I don't know now. Many AR15s with 223 chambers have problems with military ammo.
its not the ammo, its the mil spec Full Auto chamber,
its cut a tad looser to aid in extraction
now Mr Hill, we are going to have to work on these issues you have
with a standard issue highly sucessful 30year old rifle design
these guys seem to be able to keep them running in less than ideal conditions:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20011010/us/1002760761attacks_military_ncbj103.html
its cut a tad looser to aid in extraction
now Mr Hill, we are going to have to work on these issues you have
with a standard issue highly sucessful 30year old rifle design
these guys seem to be able to keep them running in less than ideal conditions:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20011010/us/1002760761attacks_military_ncbj103.html
Howdy,
My pre-ban Colt Sporter HBAR is marked .223 Rem. I have two Rock River Arms post ban complete lowers (which have yet to have Bushmaster uppers attatched) which are marked 5.56mm. Since RRA has no idea what upper I'm going to put on, I find that amusing.
So, the question is, when I put a Bushmaster Pre-Ban M4 upper on my Colt HBAR will I have a 5.56mm or .223 weapon?
My pre-ban Colt Sporter HBAR is marked .223 Rem. I have two Rock River Arms post ban complete lowers (which have yet to have Bushmaster uppers attatched) which are marked 5.56mm. Since RRA has no idea what upper I'm going to put on, I find that amusing.
So, the question is, when I put a Bushmaster Pre-Ban M4 upper on my Colt HBAR will I have a 5.56mm or .223 weapon?
Ruben Nasser
New member
Only a few semiautos chambered in 223 actually have troubles with mil 5.56 ammo (commercial colts AR15s come to mind), most others won't have any problem, and in any case it is not dangerous. Ruger used to claim any 223 or 5.56 could be used in the Mini 14. When in doubt, check with the manufacturers, I would just try the ammo and not worry if it works OK.
yankytrash
New member
For the internet's lack of facial expression and wise-ass mouth sounds, let me just add this: pisha, poppy-cock, *rasberry* (with plenty of spittle).
Run it with either. How many reports have you heard of a hunting rifle blowing up because of the higher-pressure military round?
You know why Nukem's lower is marked for 223/5.56? Because Olympic Arms knew that the pressure difference is negligable.
If you're going for competition, sure, the 223 Rem can be loaded for better accuracy out of the box. Otherwise, the difference between the two shells is about the same as an audible fart and an SBD - one is louder, but they both stink just as much.
My $.02.
Run it with either. How many reports have you heard of a hunting rifle blowing up because of the higher-pressure military round?
You know why Nukem's lower is marked for 223/5.56? Because Olympic Arms knew that the pressure difference is negligable.
If you're going for competition, sure, the 223 Rem can be loaded for better accuracy out of the box. Otherwise, the difference between the two shells is about the same as an audible fart and an SBD - one is louder, but they both stink just as much.
My $.02.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Deja vu all over again.
So I'll say again: I've used .223 ammo from all manner of sources, including some "liberated" from Fort Hood, Texas. I've run this through three of my Minis, and at least two Colt-made AR-15s.
I could not tell any difference in general performance, nor any difference in the sound of the muzzle blast, nor any difference in the appearance of the fired cases.
Whatever difference there may be in the ammo itself is too small to be of concern.
Assuming the above comments about comparative chamber size are correct, the difference there is of academic interest only, unless one is attempting competition with a military-origin rifle.
Close enough?
, Art
So I'll say again: I've used .223 ammo from all manner of sources, including some "liberated" from Fort Hood, Texas. I've run this through three of my Minis, and at least two Colt-made AR-15s.
I could not tell any difference in general performance, nor any difference in the sound of the muzzle blast, nor any difference in the appearance of the fired cases.
Whatever difference there may be in the ammo itself is too small to be of concern.
Assuming the above comments about comparative chamber size are correct, the difference there is of academic interest only, unless one is attempting competition with a military-origin rifle.
Close enough?
, ArtRuben Nasser
New member
Art: In most cases it is "academical", but if your AR15 malfunctions every two or three rounds with mil rounds (I've seen a few) then it is not ...
...yankytrash
New member
My 1981-manufactured Colt SP1 marked "CAL..223", with the original upper/barrel assembly, has seen maybe 100rds of Rem 223 and about 10,000rds or more of 5.56 NATO.
I am, for all practical purposes, the original owner.
No failures with factory commercial nor milspec ammo yet.
I am, for all practical purposes, the original owner.
No failures with factory commercial nor milspec ammo yet.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Ruben, no argument--you know what your rifle finds to be tasty.
Some guns don't seem to care what they're fed; others are picky. My pet '06 seems to be toward maximum spec on chamber size--it doesn't matter what "range junk" brass I pick up and only neck-size. OTOH, my .243 seems to have a minimum-spec chamber; it's finicky. I've had Colt 1911s that behaved the same way.
FWIW,
Art
Some guns don't seem to care what they're fed; others are picky. My pet '06 seems to be toward maximum spec on chamber size--it doesn't matter what "range junk" brass I pick up and only neck-size. OTOH, my .243 seems to have a minimum-spec chamber; it's finicky. I've had Colt 1911s that behaved the same way.
FWIW,
Art