Night Sights are Too Open?

S

stonewall50

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So I recently put night sights on my pistol. The trijicon glowing ones. XDSC 9mm. After several times shooting them? I can’t hit the broad side of the barn. I stopped carrying the gun as a result (back to a .38 snubbie I shoot well). Is this a COMMON issue people have? I just can’t seem to get my sights on target correctly. I mean I do tend to put a bit too much finger on the trigger, but I’m consistent enough to hit a 10 inch circle target at 10-20 yards. Now? I can’t seem to get even remotely on target.

I feel like I need to change back to my old sights. I’d like to get some input here if possible.


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Which sights did you put on exactly? Were the previous sights stock?

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Night sights are not precision sights. They are more like fiber optic to me. Neither are as good as conventional sights for precision shooting. I don't see any advantage to night sights at all. Had them on a PT100 and have them on a DW Valkyrie. I prefer a gold bead for faster shooting. Plain black for precision.
 
pete2 said:
Night sights are not precision sights. They are more like fiber optic to me. Neither are as good as conventional sights for precision shooting. I don't see any advantage to night sights at all. Had them on a PT100 and have them on a DW Valkyrie. I prefer a gold bead for faster shooting. Plain black for precision.
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What? How are fiber optic sights, which are often used in competition if only a fiber optic front and black rear, not for precision?

I'd add that almost any form of sight should hit a 10" circle at 20 yds. I know for a fact that I can repeatedly hit the steel headplate of IPSC targets at 25 yds, night sights or not.

To be completely off the target is a bit bizarre. Have you shot closer to see where on paper you are? I'm wondering if this is the right height front and rear for your pistol.

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TunnelRat, hitting the steel headplate of an IPSC target at 25 yards is not precision shooting. Precision shooting is hitting small targets at distance or shooting small groups. Fiber optic sights are not precision sights. Try shooting IHMSA turkeys at seventy-five yards (rimfire) or one-hundred-fifty yards (centerfire) with fiber optic sights and see how well you do. That being said, the OP still should be able to hit reasonably close, larger targets with his night sights. I put a set on a Ruger 101 .357mag and can put ten shots into a 3.8" target at twenty-five yard target. I did have to regulate my ammo to the sights on my fixed sighted 3" bbl after putting them on. The OP needs to make sure he has the same height sight on the front as the one he replaced. He didn't say what kind of groups he was getting before and after, or where the POI was after changing the sights. He also didn't say how good of a shot he was to begin with. A good shooter can shoot good groups with any sight on the gun, but the POI may not be acceptable. There's more to the story than what was provided.
 
TunnelRat said:
What? How are fiber optic sights, which are often used in competition if only a fiber optic front and black rear, not for precision?

I'd add that almost any form of sight should hit a 10" circle at 20 yds. I know for a fact that I can repeatedly hit the steel headplate of IPSC targets at 25 yds, night sights or not.

To be completely off the target is a bit bizarre. Have you shot closer to see where on paper you are? I'm wondering if this is the right height front and rear for your pistol.

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I'm with TunnelRat here. Not being able to hit a 10" target from 20-yards isn't a sight problem, it's a shooter issue. Fiber optics are capable of fine groups. In bright daylight most night sights are just plain black or three dot sights too.

Like TunnelRat I can hammer a 4" target from 25 yards with a fiber optic front sight and plain black rear, a set of Trijicon HD night sights (with YUGE U-rear notch), the plain black sights on a S&W revolver or a red ramp front and white outline rear sight. It should go without saying these are also all on different pistols and revolvers.

OP, what kind of sights and have you tried them closer up? The windage and elevation could be way off after the installation too. Wouldn't be common but also isn't out of the realm of possibilities. Start close, use big paper, find bullet holes, diagnose problem. If you were able to hit it before switching the sights, you should be able to hit it after.

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NoSecondBest said:
TunnelRat, hitting the steel headplate of an IPSC target at 25 yards is not precision shooting. Precision shooting is hitting small targets at distance or shooting small groups. Fiber optic sights are not precision sights. Try shooting IHMSA turkeys at seventy-five yards (rimfire) or one-hundred-fifty yards (centerfire) with fiber optic sights and see how well you do. That being said, the OP still should be able to hit reasonably close, larger targets with his night sights. I put a set on a Ruger 101 .357mag and can put ten shots into a 3.8" target at twenty-five yard target. I did have to regulate my ammo to the sights on my fixed sighted 3" bbl after putting them on. The OP needs to make sure he has the same height sight on the front as the one he replaced. He didn't say what kind of groups he was getting before and after, or where the POI was after changing the sights. He also didn't say how good of a shot he was to begin with. A good shooter can shoot good groups with any sight on the gun, but the POI may not be acceptable. There's more to the story than what was provided.
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To me saying fiber optic sights aren't precision sights doesn't compute. Seems to be a matter of definitions. The type of shooting in this thread then is not precision shooting either by your definition. What the OP is describing is hitting a 10" circle at 20 yds and as close as 10 yds (that is the explicit benchmark). My comments to pete were that the sights in question are certainly precise enough to do what the OP is suggesting. If you want to shoot turkey silhouettes at 75 yds have at it. Let's not miss the forest (the benchmark given) for the trees (our definitions of precision shooting).

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Neither a 4" nor 10" target is remotely precise. Nothing about any of the shooting games requires precision. The 'A' ring being ~ 8" x 6" The black on an NRA 20 or 25 yard pistol target is smaller than that. The 'X' ring is 1.12" on a 20 yard B4 target. However, that is not stonewall50's question.
Did you just put the sight on and not bore sight? When you change sights, you have to start over with that sort of thing.
The 'glowing' part might be part of the issue too. Makes the edges kind of fuzzy. "Night sights" rarely help anything anyway.
 
stonewall50 said:
Triji Orange outline HD night sights.

And yes. Stock sights before.


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Looking on Trijicon's product page they only made two versions of those sights for Springfield Armory pistols (each in orange and yellow). Unless you got the ones for the XD-S I would think you'd have reasonable POA=POI. https://www.trijicon.com/products/product-family/trijicon-hd-night-sights-for-springfield-pistols

Some measure of how off would be helpful. Even if you have to start closer and measure the offset there.

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NoSecondBest said:
TunnelRat, hitting the steel headplate of an IPSC target at 25 yards is not precision shooting. Precision shooting is hitting small targets at distance or shooting small groups. Fiber optic sights are not precision sights. Try shooting IHMSA turkeys at seventy-five yards (rimfire) or one-hundred-fifty yards (centerfire) with fiber optic sights and see how well you do. That being said, the OP still should be able to hit reasonably close, larger targets with his night sights. I put a set on a Ruger 101 .357mag and can put ten shots into a 3.8" target at twenty-five yard target. I did have to regulate my ammo to the sights on my fixed sighted 3" bbl after putting them on. The OP needs to make sure he has the same height sight on the front as the one he replaced. He didn't say what kind of groups he was getting before and after, or where the POI was after changing the sights. He also didn't say how good of a shot he was to begin with. A good shooter can shoot good groups with any sight on the gun, but the POI may not be acceptable. There's more to the story than what was provided.
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I have not done the paper tests recently. It is tough to get that option where I live without driving forever or spending too much at an indoor range. I’m headed back up to my hometown where I can shoot in a week. I will be checking then. Probably set a bench up too to remove as much error as possible.

As for my skill...I’m passable. Stock sights I’ve hit consistently on man sized targets at 50 yards, and inside of 25 I can hit a 10 inch circle every shot. Grouping isn’t great, but tends to be low left or right on a 10 inch circle. I’m a tad aggressive when I shoot. Force of habit from martial arts that I’m trying to break.

Also: I still have my stock sights and I believe I’m going back to them anyway.


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stonewall50 said:
Triji Orange outline HD night sights.

And yes. Stock sights before.


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I have those sights on my Walther PPQ, except in green for the front dot. The front sight is nice and square to my eyes in daylight, the dot doesn't really glow or fuzz, even in the shade.

But! I did find that my groups form between the top of the front sight and the center of the dot. If you were shooting low before, I doubt the HDs did anything to bring your POI up.

T O'Heir, have you seen the average pistol shooter at any public range? Being able to hit the 4" plate at 25 yards is well beyond the average skill level. (Pressing the trigger smoothly and not flinching is actually above the average skill level, but I digress...)

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Did it hit to point of aim with the stock sights at least, and if so, why didn't you just put them back on rather than switching to another gun?

It's all too often that folks buy a brand new gun, put aftermarket sights on the gun before they've ever even shot it, then assume that the sights were at fault when they experience inaccuracy at the range, yet they won't even try putting the old sights back on and shooting it first.

Sometimes guns themselves can be inaccurate, requiring adjustments to the sights or even a trip back to the manufacturer. Yes, it ought to be uncommon, and QC ought to be better, but the world is an imperfect place. Also, depending on how the sights are installed, it's possible to get them ever so slightly off, barely enough to notice unless you look really hard, but when you try to shoot at long distances that tiny little difference can impact your point of aim dramatically. These days a lot of sights are dovetailed in, requiring a punch, a rubber mallet, a vice, a sharp eye, a very steady hand and a lot of patience to install properly, yet many manufacturers make it sound extremely easy to do yourself because obviously it's harder to sell a set of $100 night sights if you admit to the buyer that for best results you should hire a gunsmith to install them. Although some do, albeit in the fine print, or otherwise included only in the instructions which you obviously can't see until you've already bought the sights and opened the packaging.
 
About four years ago a friend pointed me towards Ameriglo I-Dot sights:

https://ameriglo.com/collections/groups/smith-wesson-i-dot

At the time I was having a similar issue to what you're talking about; a lack of consistency and precision in low-light situations.

My buddy told me that lining up the two dots one on top of the other was both faster to acquire and more consistent, so I gave them a try. Two years later, all of my carry pistols were wearing these vertically aligned two-dot sights.

I believe that there is at least one other company that makes these two-dot sights, but Ameriglos have proven to be reliable, durable, applicable on all of my guns, and easy to see and use, so I stayed brand friendly.

Just a thought.
 
I believe that there is at least one other company that makes these two-dot sights, but Ameriglos have proven to be reliable, durable, applicable on all of my guns, and easy to see and use, so I stayed brand friendly.
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I think you're thinking of Heinie (I think Heinie was using this well before Ameriglo to be fair).

I've had great customer service from Ameriglo and I too really like those sights. I've also been using their Trooper series of sights with a blackout surround on the rear vials. I've had equal shooting performance with those, but I still prefer the two-dot for some reason. Heck, back in the day SIG used the dot the i type sights and I liked those too.
 
Im confused here. Whats "too open"?

The "gap" between the rear notch and the sides of the front post?

Most of the night sights these days seem to have just the opposite problem, the gaps are to narrow for me, and could be larger.

I shoot mostly three dot night sights on any of the handguns I can get them on. Been shooting them on guns since they first came out and before they were "lit".

Its to the point now, I use the dots for anything 15 yards and in, and usually dont start looking for a "traditional" sight picture until Im out to about 25 yards or so. I can easily make good head shots on a photo type silhouette target at 25 yards using the dots alone too.

Never had any troubles getting a good, sharp sight picture with those type sights either, other than the "gaps" being a tad to fine for my liking.

I always found HK's factory sights had the right gaps, as did the Browning HP's, and a few others. If only you could get a decent set of three dots with those same gaps. So far, no joy.

Where I have had issues with a good clean and sharp sight picture, have been with a couple of sets of S&W FO sights. Their front sights are not cut square, and it has a more rounded "top" to them. Their whole "V" notch rear sight is a waste too.

My other issue with FO's is, they arent consistent brightness wise, and dont do you any good in low light. They need a good light source to be effective.

For me, the biggest advantage to the three dots over the others is, they give you an instant horizontal and vertical alignment with no guessing. Three dots in a row, and the round goes to the center dot. They are also fast and intuitive to pick up and line up. Those two dot "figure 8" sights drive me nuts and screw up my shooting "loop" trying to resolve the proper alignment.

And night sights are not just for "night time" either. They are a 24/7 sight, that will let you get a sight alignment against dark backgrounds, or in light where plain sights are usually quickly lost.
 
Fiber optic sights can be set up to have a narrow gap between the front post and rear outline. That would lean towards precision, but have the potential to slow down shooting because it could take more effort to have a perceived "acceptable" sight picture with all of the dot/front post in the picture.

Fiber optic sights can also be set up to have a wider gap. That would decrease precision but acquiring and tracking the front sight would be faster. Both could be used in competition, just depends on what type of competition you're participating in. The only thing the fiber optic does is gather more light and put it out in a small bright dot which is hopefully brighter than paint, and helps to draw your focus to the front sight.

It's hard to know what the OP's setup is without measurements of the front sight post height, thickness, and the gap of the rear sight. Those are some of the choices you make when you buy from places like Dawson Precision.

I've seen some home defensive tritium sights with BIG front dots and wide gaps. Great for visibility, not so great for precision. But on smaller pistols, having wider gaps could make it much harder due to already shorter sight radius. Also seems like the OP mentioned an ergonomic issue or perhaps habit of putting too much finger on the trigger. Using the crease for revolvers works great.
 
To those of you who say night sights are worthless, do a little experiment for me. Go into a dark building, draw your pistol, and search the building for ten or fifteen minutes using a flashlight on a limited basis so you don't expose yourself. Show me your gold dot or any other unlighted sight. Night sights enable the shooter to eliminate half of the very low light situation. You can find your pistol and where it is pointed. You still have to identify your target.
 
I recently put HD XRs on a G20 and initially had awful groupings. Then I just started shooting First Shot Drills at 15 yards at a steel IDPA 12x20 painted with no crosshairs or other markings and was hitting directly center mass each time. I breathed a sigh of relief. I went back to the shoot n c targets and was screwing it up but not as bad. After a little bit, I figured it out, but that was the first time I ever put on some sights and had any difficulty. I started thinking it was my eyes or some other problem.

If I would have had problems with the first shot drills, I would have configured a rest and tried that. It does sound like you could possibly be mashing the trigger a little hard. I have a few pistols with the regular HDs you have and they are good sights, I hope things work out.
 
Think you need to set up as large of a paper target as you can at 25 yards see where the shots are going and adjust the sights from there. Were they put on correctly or are they way off? Only way to tell is to narrow down POI on paper to YOUR sight picture.
Ralph
 
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