Next generation of ammo, VERY impressive.

J

Jeff OTMG

New member
How about something to replace ALL handgun ammo for self defense. The answer to our search for the ultimate self defense ammo may just be the newly released RBCD Performance Plus Platinum Ammunnition. It is all round nose for feed reliability. It is all loaded to SAAMI STANDARD pressure limits in every caliber, so no worries about +P or +P+ damaging your firearms (there may be a LE version loaded to higher pressures). The whole round is a combination of proprietary components: the primer is special from Winchester, the brass is made by IMI and Winchester with a special primer pocket and tempered harder, the powder is from Hodgdon (a close version will be released to reloaders in 2004), the slug looks like a jacketed soft point but is a polymer composite mixture of a bunch of different things (lead only makes up 2% of the slug and even the 'copper' jacket isn't really copper). It is exotic ammo yet is cheaper than what we see with the Glaser and MagSafes. It can be purchased in 6 or 8 packs or in boxes of 20. A box of 20 is $30. The rounds are massed produced and the consistency between rounds is amazing, only 20 fps extreme spread. They seem to work in all barrel lengths too, the 9mm is a 60gr slug at 2010 fps from full size 9mm, from a Glock 26 it still makes 1975 fps. The 60 gr .357 mag is listed at 1975 fps also, but that was recorded from S&W mod 649 J-frame. Due to the light weight slugs recoil is light. Accuracy is not a problem as it is with some Glaser loads and retains sufficient velocity easily out to 50 yards (loses about 20%) so it is still zipping along at any reasonable self defense shooting distance. The round does penetrate car doors so long as you don't hit the cross beam and is still effective (will not deform) after hitting glass, unlike the Glaser and MagSafe. The round nose profile does not have a hollowpoint to get clogged up with clothing either. It is being manufactured in San Antonio, Tx which is the only way that I was even able to find out that it existed, you should see more widespread distribution by the spring of next year. The company will be at the SHOT Show in Las Vegas.

Here is some load info:

.380 - 45gr 1500 fps
9mm - 60gr 2010 fps
.357 Sig - 60gr 2410 fps
27gr HP at 2820 fps (special use)
.38 spl - 60gr 1705 fps
.357 mag - 60gr 1975 fps
.40 S&W - 60gr 2250 fps
77gr 2000 fps
10mm - 77gr 2420 fps
.45 ACP - 90gr 2036 fps
115gr 1650 fps

You should see what happens at these velocities in ballistic gelatin. Now remember, when you start seeing this stuff get written up in gun magazines next year, you heard it here first.
 
Jeff: I think it's a bit unfair to imply that not penetrating car doors or glass is a flaw of some sort in the Glaser and Magsafe slugs; The whole POINT of them is that they're non-penetrating; They're meant to be used in situations where you don't have a healthy backstop, and the downrange is occupied by innocent people. Miss the bad guy, and you will NOT kill someone on the other side of that wall behind him!

That's not to denegrate (Is that word PC?) this stuff you're touting. I'm just saying that there IS no "ultimate self defense ammo" that will serve in all situtations; Different scenarios require different characteristics.

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Sic semper tyranus!
 
The blocks I saw were 16" long and pieces penetrated roughly 10"-14" depending on caliber. I only saw the 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.

Brett, right you are, I guess I should have been more specific. In Glaser training films they recommend when firing at a driver of a car from the side that you shoot into the door about 4" under the glass. They say Glaser actually stays together better punching through the sheet metal than when hitting glass. You bring up a point that I did not ask about and that was the performance through sheetrock walls in a house. It could go zipping right through at 2000 fps from room to room.
 
A box of 20 is $30.

At $1.50 per round, few will be able to properly practice with it. If you can't afford to practice firing 100 rounds per week (or even per month), you can't afford to stake your life on it.

I'm reminded of my first shooting competition (a little bet between friends). I practiced with cheap ammo, hundreds of rounds. When the time came, I switched to expensive high-performance ammo hoping for an edge. My performance plummeted, as the ammo did not behave as expected. Given some transition time, I switched back to the crappy cheap stuff, recovered, and won the match. If fighting for my life, there won't be time to pick and choose ammo.

Moral of the story: practice with what you carry, carry what you practice with. "Performance Plus Platinum" is just too expensive to stake one's life on.
 
I usually carry MagSafe for the first few rounds in all calibers. After break in I test for cycling and feed reliability but do not shoot 100 rounds per week at $3 each. In fact I don't shoot 100 rounds per week of even .22 ammo. This stuff is about twice as expensive as CorBon and I don't know anyone that shoots 100 rounds per week of that either. At these velocities it should be extremely flat shooting, something like the FN FiveseveN round, and should allow for the same point of aim from zero to 50 yards. I suspect that it will shoot EXTREMELY LOW compared to conventional ammo and would require a sight adjustment or sight change to compensate.

Check the website:
http://www.rbcd.net

[This message has been edited by Jeff OTMG (edited November 08, 1999).]
 
Yikes. I wouldn't touch the stuff. Here's my reasoning:

What's the penetration in calibrated gelatin? The nastiest shallow wound in the world won't stop a determined adversary. Turn the first six inches of a big, mean biker type's chest into hamburger and he'll still rip your limbs off. I want reliable penetration - too much is better than too little.

I wouldn't trust any semi-auto designed for full power ammo to cycle reliably with this stuff until two hundred rounds had gone through without a hitch, which would be prohibitively expensive. Not to mention that we should practice with something that approximates our defence ammo - where are you going to find 60gr .40 ball?

I don't mean to be insulting, but think a little. Don't fall for such pure, unadultrated crap and hype. I've no doubt that some self-appointed guru will soon be touting this as the best defence load ever - that doesn't mean a thing.
 
This could lead to even greater popularity for the 9mm round. I believe the Germans mfg. an 84 grain bullet that is quite powerful and has a round nose with a hollow cavity. Unfortunately, it is not available in the U.S. The only bad thing I see about this new type of ammo is that we may not have the pleasure of arguing which is the most effective defensive round!

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
One of the few good times about getting old is you have the opportunity to see things come around for the second or third time. The claims have been made before! And they will be made again. It's the nature of the beast. I remember when the 357 mag came out it was the hand gun to end all handguns. That is if you read all the hype. Not having heard of this before It sounds like as if the main point of this ammo is the light weight of the slug. If the pressures are within saami spec why the hardened primer pocket? Did they give any specs on projectile performance. Gelatin block deformation can be made to look impressive with light weight high velocity slugs that perform miserably on live tissue.
 
Will Beararms,

Sounds like you are referring to the German (Dynamit-Nobel)GECO BAT (Blitz Action Trauma) round which uses a plastic tipped 86 grain "Action Bullet" moving at 1600 fps, the plastic tip is blown out when the round is fired by virtue of a channel running up internally from the base of the round, thus the round has hardball feeding efficiency and hollowpoint stopping potential. This round is used in their MP5's by Navy SEAL's for close combat, and is availbale to LEO only purchasers from Old Western Scrounger Inc. in Kalifornia, tel 530-459-5445. However, they have a reputation for not capping off coupled with a recommended 6 month max. shelf life

Best

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Mike H
 
Cost, price, expensive, prohibitive, too much, $, are adjetives which best describe the problem with this ammo. I am with the high velocity theory of ammo effectiveness crowd. I'd love to have a few thousand or even hundred rounds of this stuff. It sounds GREAT! But...You knew there would be a butt. But as some of you have already stated, it costs too much. This is the problem w/CorBon, Triton, and all of the other specialty ammos. If you need to spend the amount of $ that it costs to buy another quality weapon, JUST to see if its going to be 100% reliable out the tube, they are going to have to drop the price LOTS before I'll consider using it. That's a shame, because it sounds so promissing if what Jeff reports is what performs. Low caliber rifle ballistics out of a short tube...WOW!!! Price I'd spend on ammo to check reliability and keep familiar with shooting caracteristics.....WOW!!! Hmmmmm. When I am rich and famous, should I hire a personal body guard OR buy the next generation ammo?....... ;) Just thinking to myself.

BTW Jeff,

Thanks for the report. Its the first that I've heard about this ammo and is very interesting. I appreciate the info. :)

Robert

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
It sounds interesting. And sure it may be expensive now, but if it really does work (only time will tell) then somebody else will start to make something similar, and the price will go down.

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but aren't lighter projectiles supposed to penetrate less? That would seem to be a good thing in your home, as long as you still got enough penetration through the bad guy.

The tiny little 22 grain bullet from the FN does 2788 fps. These bullets could be interesting. (if they work)
 
Sounds interesting, and a bit like a composite bullet that may already be available from Jeff Mullins at Mullins Ammo.
www.mullinsammunition.com (Jeff will be making two versions, short and long-range.)

I have bought somewhere in the neighborhood of 800 rounds of JHP from Jeff. (The majority of it my pet load, .40 155-grain XTP loaded full power.) Good, accurate stuff.

Jeff's bullet will be as heavy as typical defensive ammo, so it should have similiar point of impact. It should be "a bit" :) cheaper, as well.
 
The primer and primer pocket are special to improve the consistency between rounds, it is part of how the 20 fps spread is acheived. The tempering change is to prevent the brass from being reloaded. The manufacturer only wants his cases to be used once. They tried softer and harder and decided on a more brittle brass, should take one or two reloads before splitting.

If you pistol cycles round nose, it should cycle this. The profile is the same. The slide velocities should be high enough for cycling, unlike some of the 9mm 147gr JHP in some pistols.

I would apply the same limitations to this as I would to Glaser and MagSafe, not for uniformed LEO use. The penetration after encountering intermediate obsticles, like an arm on a crossing shot, take up to much of the energy to be certain of a shot penetrating the torso and being effective. For a frontal shot, as is encountered in off duty or private citizen self defense situations, I would have no problem using something that turned 6" of chest into hamburger. The heart, lungs, major arteries, stomach, diaphram, intestines, are all less than 6" from the surface and this stuff goes 10"-14". I have pictures of x-rays from Glaser Safety Slug shootings and the wounds are horrible. A 9mm head shot caused the eyes to be blown from the sockets with no exit wound. A .380 in the pectoral muscle dropped a liquor store robber in hs tracks, he was DRT. I am a believer in exotics for concealed carry. I shifted to MagSafes years before meeting Joe Zambone, but this stuff is even faster than some of the MagSafe loads. IMO, with the round nose profile, low recoil, and these velocities, the load looks pretty awesome to me. Goes back to the old comparision, if I were going to be shot in the left shoulder by a 9mm, would I chose the 115gr FMJ at 1100 fps, 115gr JHP at 1350, or one of these 60gr screamers at over 2000 fps. In .357 Sig, a 125gr at 1450, or 60 grs at over 2400? In .45 a 230gr at 900 fps or 90 gr at 2036?

They sure sound promising to me. We will have to see what the Jello Junkies say next year in the write ups. I like the way Sanow measures effectiveness in Jello and compares measurements with slugs used in his morgue studies.
 
I like the sound of them too. The cost issue is still going to be a big issue to me in 10 years, (not likely that I'll win the lotery since I don't play), as I don't see specialized ammo companies bringing their prices down significantly after the business gets off of the ground. Maybe somebody can correct me on this, but even the bigger ones like Cor Bon and Triton charge a premium for their products. I'm not saying that they shouldn't, because maybe they don't make hardly any profit as it is with todays retail pricing. I just wish the stuff was affordable for those of us who don't load for were wolves or the Lone Ranger.

Even though they are round nose, which is a good thing, they still can't be trusted for reliability until plenty of ammo is ejected out the bore and chamber w/out a problem. One concern with hot ammo is timing and magazine spring tension. Some auto loaders have been known to occasionally miss stripping a round off the top of the mag and chambered due to excessive slide velocities. If the mag spring can keep up w/the slide vel., no problem. If the spring is too weak, the chamber remains empty after extraction. For revolvers, I see no problem.

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
Light bullets going fast...
This is an old argument.

My big fat .45s will remain 230 grain fed.

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE



[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited November 09, 1999).]
 
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