Next Cal reload.223 SB questions/38 spc

J

juggernault98

New member
After reloading 9mm for a couple months I am looking at my next caliber to reload.223 or.38 spc.

My reloading buddy said I needed.223 small base dyes. For semi auto rifles. Looking around I see RCBS has them and they only come with two dyes. Base sizer with expander and reg seater with seater plug.

Comparing those dyes to my 9mm I'm missing 2 dyes. Unless those SB dyes do the work of 4 dyes?

Would I use my dipper for the powder?

Also if anyone has any good starting powder that runs good with a tavor that would be appreciated as well.
 
Most rifle dies are only 2 dies sets. The resizer, deprimer, and expander are typically all one die. The other die seats the bullet. I'm not sure about the small base idea. I'd be willing to bet most .223 dies will work with semi-autos otherwise everyone would be calling, complaining and returning the dies.

There's no way I'd try the dippers for rifle loads. They might work OK for 38 special.

.38 special is a much easier round to load. I'd choose that as my next round unless you shoot a ton of .223. Another problem with .223 is the economics. After you buy the bullet ($.15+), the powder ($.10+), and the primer (.03) you're not too far off the price of loaded ammo. You can create real accurate rifle ammo but it will take practice and research.
 
Bottle neck rifle dies, for example .223 Winchester, only require a 2 die set. You have the sizing die and the seating die. There are sets like Lee which include a FCD (Factory Crimp Die) and powder through die. Personally I have been using 2 die sets for decades and never had a problem. I also have never had a need for SB (Small Base) dies but do have a set. This involves loading for four AR rifles and one bolt gun. There are pros and cons to just about every die out there. SB dies are not absolutely required for semi-auto rifles. Unless you are resizing military brass which went through a loose chamber machine gun I see no need for SB dies but up to you. Anyway a two die set like RCBS Part #11101 is all you need to make uniform consistent ammunition in .223 Remington. From there you canget fancy and expensive depending on the rifle you are loading for but for a common AR there is no need in my opinion.

Ron
 
This is kind of rifle basic case processing, so if some of this you already know, skip over it.

A cartridge in a rifle chamber seats on the 'Datum Line' on the chamber
(unless rimmed or belted case, which isn't the case with .223/5.56)

The distance between Datum Line in the chamber to the CLOSED bolt face is 'Head Space'.

DatumPoint_zps5ehuiapf.jpg


The Datum Line (.223/5.56mm) is gauged with a .330" diameter hole.
When the shoulder expands to .330" that is the Datum Line that will contact the chamber.

A case gauge, often called a 'Head Space' gauge, will give you an analog to your chamber and allow you to measure your brass to see if it will fit into any given chamber.

NOT all chamber have the same 'Datum Line'/Head Space distance, so if you are loading rounds for more than a single rifle or intend to swap ammo with someone, you pretty much have to move that shoulder/Datum Line back to 'Factory' or 'SAAMI' specification.

Again, a case gauge will help you out a bunch getting your brass formed into a shape that rifles will accept without 'Long' or excessive Head Spacing causing issues.

Auto Loading rifles often function much more reliable with 'Factory' or 'SAAMI' specification length ammunition.
 
The second measurement is case length from head stamp to mouth (where the bullet goes into the case)

Look at image above, look at 'Datum Line' FORWARD to the case mouth...

Honestly, I find this to be the LEAST CRITICAL measurement in reloading...
The neck can be a little short (within reason) and effect NOTHING in function or accuracy.
The ONLY job the neck has is to hold the bullet more or less centered with the bore of the barrel...
Secondary function is to produce a gas seal against the chamber, but the case has released the bullet by that point...

This is often referred to a 'Trim To Length', but the case body MUST be sized before you try to take this measurement....
 
The 3rd measurement is case side wall size, the case diameter.

Lay your FIRED case on a straight edge or flat block, look for swelling 'Bloat' in the case sides.

RESIZE your cases and do the same thing.

You will find that common top 'Punch' dies produce fairly straight case walls about 3/4 the way down the case,
And you will find 'Bloat' in the case just above the extraction groove.

There is NO WAY to get the last of that 'Bloat' out of the cases with common top punch sizing dies,
A 'Small Base' sizing die simply beats that bloat down a little farther in an attempt to allow the brass to fit into a chamber.

'Bloat' hanging out of the chamber, or in the part of the chamber that is cut oversize (where the bloat came from in the first place) doesn't matter since the brass fits into the chamber again, and is just going to expand again to slightly under chamber diameter...

The 'Trick' here is to get that 'Bloat' beat down enough to fit into every chamber you intend to fire the ammo through.
*IF* that's more than one rifle, you have to beat the Bloat down to fit the TIGHTEST chamber (minimum diameter) you have...
 
A $20 L.E. Wilson 'Head Space' gauge does a pretty good job as a case side profile gauge, 99% of the time if the case fits into the gauge correctly, it will fit the chamber.

This is a bonus since the 'Head Space' gauge is actually there to provide a 'Datum Line' measurement 'Reference' point so you can measure with a caliper or micrometer.

The Wilson case gauges also have grooves ground into both ends, this is minimum & maximum Datum Line to Head Stamp length that will fit into most chambers,
And the groove on the neck'mouth end of the case is minimum & maximum 'Trim To Length' letting you know in a 'Quick Check' if the case needs work.

*IF* you drop loaded rounds into the gauge, the gauge will tell you quickly that the round isn't OFF SPECIFICATION, that the shoulder didn't bulge or something else didn't go wrong and the round will fit into your chamber.

We call this a 'Last Word' gauge, the final check or 'Last Word' before the round goes out to the rifle.

------

An addition to that case gauge,
When you use a caliper and measure a loaded round that is exactly the correct length with bullet installed,
Use an 'L' bracket & metal hose clamp (Hardware Store) on the side of the gauge,

When your round drops fully into the case gauge and the bullet nose touches the leg of the 'L', your bullets are seated perfectly.
(Slight differences are acceptable, but now you have a 'Quick Gauge' to tell the difference)
 
Huntinaz,
ARs generally have some of the least supported chambers, particularly at the rear of the chamber.

Auto Loaders in general usually have 'Loose' chambers to help facilitate the loading process, The rear of all AR chambers are unsupported, just a quirk of the design.

Try and stuff AR brass into a 'Tight' chamber bolt rifle, and you will be looking for a longer reach die to push the bottom case bloat back in so the brass will fit the chamber.

The advent of 'Small Base' dies is pretty much a direct result of the popularity of brass fired through semi or full auto firearms,
Not saying that 'Small Base' didn't exist before, just saying there is a MUCH larger demand for them as the popularity of semi/full auto brass became available and civilian brass availability diminished during the 'Brass Shortage'.

I know about a dozen 'Ruger American' owners that had to be introduced to 'Small Base' dies or case rolling since the Ruger American has a very tight tolerance chamber... MUCH closer to SAAMI specification ammunition than most auto loading rifles, and those Ruger American owners are having a heck of a time with 'Once Fired' brass fitting the chamber.

This is simply because the Ruger American has a chamber that is supported much further down toward the head stamp, so virtually all the case bloat has to be removed for once fired brass to fit the chamber.

Like I tried to point out before,
If you are going to shoot your ammo in more than ONE SPECIFIC firearm, you will need to make that ammo fit the TIGHTEST chamber you own or load for.
 
Standard FL dies don't size cases to SAAMI specs?

Same brass fits fine in my CZ 527 too btw.

It's like $5 extra right now at Midway for SB dies so by all means get them, but a lot of people don't need them.
 
Just to see the difference, drop a once fired case from a AR, before resizing, and see how bloated the case is. That is into a case gauge!
 
A case gauge is ALWAYS good to have, diagnoses mistakes and problems with brass really quickly.

Between the space UP the case the shell holder takes up,
And the taper (funnel shape) at the bottom of the die, there is always an area of the case that does not get resized.

If that bloat that doesn't get taken out doesn't keep your brass from fitting in your rifles, you are good to go.
The case is just going to bloat again when fired, but it fits YOUR chambers so it's often a non-issue.

Small base dies simply have less taper at the bottom, and since you don't switch shell holders, that area doesn't change.
All small base dies usually do is knock the case bloat down the case 0.002" to 0.005"
Thick case heads in some brass, this can create some issues.
The case floor at the head *Can* be too thick, too far up in the brass and pushing case walls in around it *Can* cause a seperation line right at Case floor to case side connection point.

US made brass *Usually* doesn't have this issue, but some foreign made brass, especially military brass can have this issue quite often.

Everyone *Thinks* 'Small Base' means the side walls get pushed in further, reducing diameter of the side walls, this is not true, the side walls are more or less SAAMI,
The die simply reaches further down the case sides, trying to resize closer to the head of the case.

To return the case to SAAMI specification all the way down the sides, you would normally push that case through an 'Orifice' (hole) die,
Or,
You would roll the case between two die plates that restores the case profile at the base.
Rarely needed unless you are trying to restore all cases to fully SAAMI specification from one end to the other.

Restoring the ENTIRE case is a 'Remanufacture' sizing instead of a 'Reloading' sizing. Remanufacturing is by definition restoring the entire case to SAAMI specification, just like factory virgin cases.
(Remanufacturing also requires annealing the case back to factory virgin 'Hardness', restoring the extraction groove, straightening the case extraction lip, etc.)

With 'Reloading' sizing, you are simply pushing the shoulder back to fit YOUR rifles, compressing/expanding the neck to accept another bullet.
Even with the 'Simple' version, the 'Datum Line' has to be in the correct position for proper head space, the neck has to be resized to hold another bullet correctly, and the case sides have to be pushed back in sufficiently to fit YOUR chambers...

This is pretty easy with today's dies! You just have to watch and make sure the die is doing its job & is adjusted correctly for your chambers.
A common case gauge helps with your inspections...
 
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Rick D,
Using a case gauge & caliper/micrometer to inspect cases AS you are setting up dies is an eye opener!

Watching the sizing line move down the side of the case as you adjust your die 'Down',
Gauging where the shoulder winds up (Datum Line) with something as simple as pushing on the press handle a little more/less,

Knowing that all sizing dies/parts ARE NOT created equal,
I measure the case mouth opening and hone die neck to NOT over compress my high quality brass cases,
And I hone sizing balls to keep the neck opening about 0.002" SMALLER than the diameter of the bullets I'm shooting.

Keeping the neck COMPRESSION to a minimum, the brass gets less work hardening.
Remember, those common production dies are made to work cases of EVERY material a case has ever been made of,
High Zinc brass, Low Zinc brass, tin, copper, plain zinc, even steel...
(One size fits nothing really well)

So, I adjust the neck sizing to fit the 'High' Zinc content brass I shoot.
This stops over-compressing the neck, saving some work hardening.

Then I pay attention to the sizing ball and what size the neck is coming out of the dies.
For auto loaders or heavy recoil, I make that case neck a little smaller to provide more neck tension.
This also reduces the work hardening a little more while having brass that fits my application a little better.

Now, 'Competition' dies often have inserts to accommodate different thickness neck brass & over compression,
These are a BUNCH more money, but are easier to fine tune to the brass you NORMALLY shoot.
Since the question was about 'Small Base' or common (low budget) dies, I didn't throw that into the 'Basics' coverage...

Same thing with 'Small Base' dies, they are simply a tool for making the brass fit YOUR rifle chamber(s).
If you DO NOT need to move the brass, then don't move it!

This is the idea behind 'Neck Sizing' dies vs. full length sizing.
If you ONLY need to 'Bump' the shoulder back a few thousands, and resize the neck to accept another bullet, then no sense in working the ENTIRE brass...

You *MIGHT* find that you need 'Small Base' dies on only the FIRST resize,
Then you *Might* get away with neck/shoulder sizing after that...
You won't know until you get a case gauge and check,
Or, you can buy up all the dies, hit & miss experiment to try and figure it out...

It's up to you,
The question was on 'Small Base' dies, but since the OP said he hadn't reloaded .224 (bottle neck rifle cases) I thought I'd cover the basics 'Just In Case' and NOT get locked into an argument what this particular guy, or that particular guy does...
 
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