Newbie revolver question
- Thread starter ump45
- Start date
For example. I went over to the ruger website, and I notice that there are about 20 different versions of the RedHawk.
They are broken into two seperate categories:
1. Large-Frame Double-Action Revolvers
2. New Model Single-Action Revolvers
Can anyone explain what the difference between these two are?
They are broken into two seperate categories:
1. Large-Frame Double-Action Revolvers
2. New Model Single-Action Revolvers
Can anyone explain what the difference between these two are?
RAY WOODROW 3RD
New member
Differences.....
A double action revolver can be fired by just pulling the trigger or cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger, it does two things so it is a double action.
A single action revolver has to have the hammer pulled back every time before you pull the trigger in order for it to fire, hence it is a single action revolver since the trigger only does one thing, release the hammer. Get it?
A double action revolver can be fired by just pulling the trigger or cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger, it does two things so it is a double action.
A single action revolver has to have the hammer pulled back every time before you pull the trigger in order for it to fire, hence it is a single action revolver since the trigger only does one thing, release the hammer. Get it?
For starters, there are two different "actions" a revolver trigger can possibly perform:
1) Releasing the hammer for firing once it's cocked;
2) Cocking the hammer while at the same time spinning the cylinder to the next round.
Early revolvers could only do the first action; they had to be cocked by hand (or thumb, or whatever) before each trigger pull and fire.
These were thus "single action".
Double action revolvers can perform both, so you can fire until the gun runs dry by just pulling the trigger repeatedly - sort of like a semi-auto, but with a difference:
The DA trigger pull is always a "long stroke" and somewhat heavy, because you're hauling the hammer back against mainspring pressure. DA triggers run anywhere from about 9lbs to 14 or so.
SA triggers can be as light as a pound or two, but under 3 is considered unsafe in a "street defense gun". And the SA trigger movement is very short; on a good gun, it'll feel "like a glass rod breaking" with no creep, roughness, etc.
Most DA guns have a hammer that can be manually cocked to allow an SA shot when desired. In other words, for a defense gun, you can whip it out and take a quick DA shot at close range, or if the problem is at longer range, you can cock it for greater accuracy.
Another issue is that almost all SA guns made today are made to look like and (mostly) work like an "old west cowboy gun" such as the 1873 Colt SAA "Peacemaker". Hence, in addition to having to cock them for every shot, reloading is comparatively slow. The cylinder can't be "swung out" like a modern DA gun, which on modern DAs lets you empty all six (or whatever) cylinders at once and gives you access to all of them for reloading.
On classic SA guns, bullets are loaded one at a time into the cylinder via a "loading gate" - the cylinder cannot "swing free".
The Ruger SP101, GP100, Redhawk and Super Redhawk series are all DA guns. All have hammers that can be cocked for SA firing except a few variants of the SP101.
Ruger's Blackhawk, Single Six, Bisley Blackhawk and Super Blackhawk are SA guns with fairly modern sights. The Vaquero, Bisley Vaquero and Bearcat have more primitive "cowboy type sights" making them look even more like genuine old-west gear.
SA guns actually have some advantages. When done up with modern metallurgy, they can be much stronger than most DA guns because the cylinder is locked in place. The grip design was originally made for comfortable one-handed shooting (from horseback). And some people just like how they feel and shoot; recoil control happens from the grip "rolling up in your hand". The Bisley-type grip in particular has an excellent rep for controlling big recoil way out past .44Mag power levels.
Still and all, most people use SAs only for hunting, wilderness defense, target and sports like Cowboy Action Shooting. DAs are the modern defensive revolvers, although there'll always be a few die-hards packing SAs because they've gotten very good at 'em
.
What else...all of the Ruger SAs made since 1973 have a modern safety system built in that prevents firing unless your finger is pulling the trigger. Called a "transfer bar safety", it's similar to safeties found on DA revolvers, so like almost all DA guns, it's safe to carry them with a live round in every chamber. Genuine 19th-century cowboy guns lacked such an automatic safety, so they had to be carried with one less round and the hammer down on the empty cylinder. Tradition had them rolling a $20 bill into the unused cylinder, which meant that the gun was safe to carry when the hammer was "on the money" - which is where we get that term. The other term we still have from old non-safety SA wheelguns is "going off half cocked" which should give you some clue as to how common accidents were if we're still using the terms today without even knowing they're old revolver terms.
Anyways, what it means is, internally the SA Rugers are not "totally authentic". Which as far as I'm concerned, is a good thing.
1) Releasing the hammer for firing once it's cocked;
2) Cocking the hammer while at the same time spinning the cylinder to the next round.
Early revolvers could only do the first action; they had to be cocked by hand (or thumb, or whatever) before each trigger pull and fire.
These were thus "single action".
Double action revolvers can perform both, so you can fire until the gun runs dry by just pulling the trigger repeatedly - sort of like a semi-auto, but with a difference:
The DA trigger pull is always a "long stroke" and somewhat heavy, because you're hauling the hammer back against mainspring pressure. DA triggers run anywhere from about 9lbs to 14 or so.
SA triggers can be as light as a pound or two, but under 3 is considered unsafe in a "street defense gun". And the SA trigger movement is very short; on a good gun, it'll feel "like a glass rod breaking" with no creep, roughness, etc.
Most DA guns have a hammer that can be manually cocked to allow an SA shot when desired. In other words, for a defense gun, you can whip it out and take a quick DA shot at close range, or if the problem is at longer range, you can cock it for greater accuracy.
Another issue is that almost all SA guns made today are made to look like and (mostly) work like an "old west cowboy gun" such as the 1873 Colt SAA "Peacemaker". Hence, in addition to having to cock them for every shot, reloading is comparatively slow. The cylinder can't be "swung out" like a modern DA gun, which on modern DAs lets you empty all six (or whatever) cylinders at once and gives you access to all of them for reloading.
On classic SA guns, bullets are loaded one at a time into the cylinder via a "loading gate" - the cylinder cannot "swing free".
The Ruger SP101, GP100, Redhawk and Super Redhawk series are all DA guns. All have hammers that can be cocked for SA firing except a few variants of the SP101.
Ruger's Blackhawk, Single Six, Bisley Blackhawk and Super Blackhawk are SA guns with fairly modern sights. The Vaquero, Bisley Vaquero and Bearcat have more primitive "cowboy type sights" making them look even more like genuine old-west gear.
SA guns actually have some advantages. When done up with modern metallurgy, they can be much stronger than most DA guns because the cylinder is locked in place. The grip design was originally made for comfortable one-handed shooting (from horseback
). And some people just like how they feel and shoot; recoil control happens from the grip "rolling up in your hand". The Bisley-type grip in particular has an excellent rep for controlling big recoil way out past .44Mag power levels.Still and all, most people use SAs only for hunting, wilderness defense, target and sports like Cowboy Action Shooting. DAs are the modern defensive revolvers, although there'll always be a few die-hards packing SAs because they've gotten very good at 'em
.What else...all of the Ruger SAs made since 1973 have a modern safety system built in that prevents firing unless your finger is pulling the trigger. Called a "transfer bar safety", it's similar to safeties found on DA revolvers, so like almost all DA guns, it's safe to carry them with a live round in every chamber. Genuine 19th-century cowboy guns lacked such an automatic safety, so they had to be carried with one less round and the hammer down on the empty cylinder. Tradition had them rolling a $20 bill into the unused cylinder, which meant that the gun was safe to carry when the hammer was "on the money" - which is where we get that term. The other term we still have from old non-safety SA wheelguns is "going off half cocked" which should give you some clue as to how common accidents were if we're still using the terms today without even knowing they're old revolver terms.
Anyways, what it means is, internally the SA Rugers are not "totally authentic". Which as far as I'm concerned, is a good thing
.Blue Duck357
New member
Single actions can also be made a little more compact than the same caliber double action gun.
P
PreserveFreedom
Guest
Let's not forget that a properly tuned SA revolver can be rapid-fired much faster in the right hands.
So on the Ruger website, for the revolver's listed under the "New Model Single-Action Revolvers" category, I would have to manually thumb back the hammer after each shot, otherwise it won't fire?
And for all the revolver's listed under the "Large-Frame Double-Action Revolvers", I can just pull the trigger shot after shot, but in that case it's a long trigger pull and not a short trigger pull. Also, with this category of gun I have the option of manually thumbing back the hammer to get a short trigger pull.
Did I get that right?
And for all the revolver's listed under the "Large-Frame Double-Action Revolvers", I can just pull the trigger shot after shot, but in that case it's a long trigger pull and not a short trigger pull. Also, with this category of gun I have the option of manually thumbing back the hammer to get a short trigger pull.
Did I get that right?
Blue Duck357
New member
You got it down pat.
Don't take this question as insulting please, but why aren't revolvers DA/SA (like most semi-autos).
To me DA/SA makes the most sense. For example with my sig p226, I can hit the decocker so it has that long trigger pull for the first shot, and then after that it is a short trigger pull (until I manually hit the decocker again).
To me DA/SA makes the most sense. For example with my sig p226, I can hit the decocker so it has that long trigger pull for the first shot, and then after that it is a short trigger pull (until I manually hit the decocker again).
That's easy...
Because recoil energy doesn't cock the gun!
Look, let's say you do a DA stroke. Cool. Now the hammer is down, the bullet is flying downrange...on a semi-auto the recoil energy of the slide cocks the gun for the next shot.
Mr. Revolver ain't got no slide.
Now, the good news is, there's no such thing as "limp-wristing" a revolver. If you've been shot, and you can barely raise the gun to fire and otherwise operate it with but a single wounded hand, you can return fire. That fact saved several cop's lives in Miami in 1986 when the FBI went up against two lunatic bank robbers...the agent that finished the fight was totally screwed up, mentally and physically, but he could still get a sight picture and crank .38Spl out of a snubbie.
There's also no feed ramp - you can run whatever bizarre funky bullet shape you want, the gun won't care as long as they fit in the cylinders at all.
It's a whole different world. More reliability, more power for the same weight than a slidegun, but there's tradeoffs.
With a DA trigger, what you need to do is learn to start pulling the trigger on the second and subsequent shots while the barrel is still coming down from recoil; your own timing cranks the next off just as the front sight comes back down onto target. With practice, this can be blazingly fast; the word records in aimed rapid fire (outside of true full auto) are all held by DA revolvers, beating out SA semi-autos such as the Browning Hi-Power/1911 types and DA/SA slideguns such as your Sig.
The records for fastest first shot are held by masters shooting *SA* revolvers. And because it's possible to hold an SA wheelgun's trigger back and fire the gun repeatedly by "fanning" the hammer, rapid-fire SA can be crazy-fast too...takes a lot of practice, and a specially-tuned gun to handle that sort of abuse and accuracy is..."iffy".
(Sidenote: there's a crazy Italian revolver out there that DOES spin the cylinder and cock the hammer based on recoil. It's expensive and mechanically complex and I for one have zero interest in it. There have been historical designs dating to the 19th century that did similar, and were probably where the idea of using recoil energy to make the gun function came from, leading to guns like your Sig.)
Because recoil energy doesn't cock the gun!
Look, let's say you do a DA stroke. Cool. Now the hammer is down, the bullet is flying downrange...on a semi-auto the recoil energy of the slide cocks the gun for the next shot.
Mr. Revolver ain't got no slide
.Now, the good news is, there's no such thing as "limp-wristing" a revolver. If you've been shot, and you can barely raise the gun to fire and otherwise operate it with but a single wounded hand, you can return fire. That fact saved several cop's lives in Miami in 1986 when the FBI went up against two lunatic bank robbers...the agent that finished the fight was totally screwed up, mentally and physically, but he could still get a sight picture and crank .38Spl out of a snubbie.
There's also no feed ramp - you can run whatever bizarre funky bullet shape you want, the gun won't care as long as they fit in the cylinders at all.
It's a whole different world. More reliability, more power for the same weight than a slidegun, but there's tradeoffs.
With a DA trigger, what you need to do is learn to start pulling the trigger on the second and subsequent shots while the barrel is still coming down from recoil; your own timing cranks the next off just as the front sight comes back down onto target. With practice, this can be blazingly fast; the word records in aimed rapid fire (outside of true full auto) are all held by DA revolvers, beating out SA semi-autos such as the Browning Hi-Power/1911 types and DA/SA slideguns such as your Sig.
The records for fastest first shot are held by masters shooting *SA* revolvers. And because it's possible to hold an SA wheelgun's trigger back and fire the gun repeatedly by "fanning" the hammer, rapid-fire SA can be crazy-fast too...takes a lot of practice, and a specially-tuned gun to handle that sort of abuse and accuracy is..."iffy"
.(Sidenote: there's a crazy Italian revolver out there that DOES spin the cylinder and cock the hammer based on recoil. It's expensive and mechanically complex and I for one have zero interest in it. There have been historical designs dating to the 19th century that did similar, and were probably where the idea of using recoil energy to make the gun function came from, leading to guns like your Sig.)
I used to be of the opinion that SA revolvers were interesting for cowboy shooting or perhaps if it was an antique but had no uses other than that. After firing a Ruger Vaquero Bisley, I've changed my mind. As was stated before, the Bisley grip makes recoil very controllable -- 300gr at 1300 fps for a 45 Colt +p just tickles. I have not practiced enough to feel confident carrying it (plus it's sort of big), but for the range it is a lot of fun. I put in a spring kit from Wolff, that makes the trigger break at just a hair above 3 pounds -- best trigger I've ever had on a revolver.
For what it's worth.
SA's are mechanically simpler than DA's or Self Loaders.
Any device that becomes more complicated increases the risk of failure.
If a DA, SL or modern SA with a transfer bar breaks a functioning part, the gun generally becomes unuseable.
Old Model Rugers and original Colts and their clones are another story.
If any part of the trigger fails, the gun can be fired by thumbing/releasing the hammer.
If any part of the cylinder indexing system breaks, the cylinder can be indexed manually.
Hell, even if the hammer spring breaks, ya can whack the hammer against a live round (I do not recommend using your hand for a heavy recoiling gun!!).
Just my 2cents.
SA's are mechanically simpler than DA's or Self Loaders.
Any device that becomes more complicated increases the risk of failure.
If a DA, SL or modern SA with a transfer bar breaks a functioning part, the gun generally becomes unuseable.
Old Model Rugers and original Colts and their clones are another story.
If any part of the trigger fails, the gun can be fired by thumbing/releasing the hammer.
If any part of the cylinder indexing system breaks, the cylinder can be indexed manually.
Hell, even if the hammer spring breaks, ya can whack the hammer against a live round (I do not recommend using your hand for a heavy recoiling gun!!).
Just my 2cents.