Newbie BP revolver questions

ThomasJ2352

New member
Hello and an apology if this isnt the right place or its so ridiculously simplistic to be insulting...I'm looking at getting an 1858 Remington (likely Pietta) 5/5" or 8" 44 cal revolver with the thought of, eventually, purchasing a conversion cylinder. It was my thought to go with 45 colt cowboy load rounds but I spoke with a chap at his mainly BP related store and he indicated that one could easily load their own 45 brass rounds without needing a press.
So my questions are:
1) would the brass rounds use BP or smokeless powder?
2) how would one reload without a press? The chap referred to using paper in the process and
pointed to brass rounds with what appeared to have a paper ring between the bullet and case.
3) this is more related to using paper cartridges...I've watched a number of videos showing how to
make em but few seem to show how they are put into the cylinders....when they are inserted into
each chamber is the ramrod used to smunch them down or are they just left as they were put in?

Thoughts?
Thanks
Tom
 
I have a Pietta replica of the Remington 1858, and I bought a conversion cylinder. Since I also load for a modern (Ruger) 45 Colt, I just load in the same press. I do run paper patched bullets in 45-70 and 50-70 rifles. Check with the manufacturer, but the cylinder I have can handle light loads of smokeless powder. That said, I load holy black or a substitute for two reasons.

First, you have less worry about overcharging. My smokeless "cowboy" load for the 45 uses 8 grains of Unique. One could fit 3 charges in that big case, and a double charge is likely to be catastrophic. With black, you're loading strictly by volume, and it's pretty difficult to overload. Second, that Remington was born to make smoke. Cleanup is not really that difficult, either.

I had not heard of paper patching 45 Colt, but it was (and is) a common practice for rifles. In fact, my primary 50-70 load is paper patched. Just use a slightly undersized bullet (typically 8 mil undersized) wrapped in 2 layers of "onion skin" paper. Your dealer probably has the supplies and can show you how. And there are some good books. With care and a little practice, you can load those bullets by hand. The old buffalo hunters did.

I'm guessing you are "across the pond", but a good US source for BP cartridge supplies is Buffalo Arms. Good shooting!
 
Thank you ligonierbill for your information.....greatly appreciated...really...
I did a search for paper patch bullets and a plethora of info came flooding in...
As a tinkerer its wonderful to see! Cant wait to get started.
Thanks again,
Tom
 
35 - 40 grains of FFFg real Black powder in 45 Colt is no slouch of a load. 35 Grains under a 250 grain bullet is my favorite load to shoot out of anything chambered in 45 Colt.
 
+1 on what deerslayer said. And I neglected to answer question #3. I have not used paper cartridges in mine, but in a front stuffer, it's simply a way to have your load preset. The loading principal is the same. You need to seat the ball with the loading lever (or remove the cylinder and use a loading stand) to seal the cylinder. The ball is slightly oversized; I use a 0.451 roundball in mine. When you seat the ball, you'll actually shave a small ring. That seals the cylinder and ensures the ball stays in place until you touch off the powder. I load 30 grains FFFg.
 
I am a fan

Yup a cylinder stand or press is the bee's knees for the 1858 Remmie. Easier to see that I am shaving that ring, and I feel like I am more consistent using the cylinder press.
 
If I may...I think I know a little...and I mean a little.

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1) would the brass rounds use BP or smokeless powder?

Both.

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I also shot a few rounds with the same gun yesterday with a nice load of 6.8 grains of Accurate Arms #2 under a cast and powder coated 200 grain Lee SWC. Make sure you do NOT try to use powder coated bullets for black powder - they have to have lube in the grooves for fouling control, like such.

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2) how would one reload without a press? The chap referred to using paper in the process and
pointed to brass rounds with what appeared to have a paper ring between the bullet and case.

That isn't any kind of paper cartridge I've ever seen, but it DOES sound like a paper patched bullet, not the same thing.


3) this is more related to using paper cartridges...I've watched a number of videos showing how to
make em but few seem to show how they are put into the cylinders....when they are inserted into
each chamber is the ramrod used to smunch them down or are they just left as they were put in?

Yes, just like this. Those were my first try, without lube - bad juju. I will do them again dipping in the SPG tropic lube.

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I love my Remington New Model Army "1858", but after switching to the conversion cylinder, I probably won't switch back unless I have to, like I run out of large pistol primers and can't find any more. I mentioned I fired it yesterday - I hit a 3/4 scale steel IDPA target at 100 yards with that smokeless load. Not all six to be certain...Ok, it was just once, but it WAS the first shot! :)
 
Yeah....there were witnesses, too many to eliminate. :D

BTW, I forgot to explain that my conversion cylinder is a Howell, which is rated for "cowboy loads" of 850 FPS or less. It works very well, indeed, dropped into my Uberti with no fitting required whatsoever.

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Isn't a case full of black a "Cowboy Load"? :D I know they mean them pip squeak SASS rounds. I still don't see how a black powder round could generate the pressure needed to hurt anything. I mean what's the difference in me shoving a 240 grain Kaido on top of 30 grains of powder and shoving a 250 LRNFP on top of 30 ish grains in a cartridge?
 
well, because I've been told "Cowboy Load" doesn't mean it has to be black powder, back when I sold the stuff at a gunshop in Tucson. And yes, from what I've been told, a "case full of black", what I loaded just two nights ago, doesn't have enough energy to hurt modern steel. That was homemade 2F, about 78%, loaded to crunch of 1/8 inch, meaning the bullet compressed the load about 1/8th of an inch, same 200gr Lee cast seen above with SPG Tropic lube in the groove. These should be mild little poppers - last time I fired this powder in this revolver, it generated just over 550 FPS, but the load was lighter. Maybe I'll break 600 FPS this time. ;)
 
Howdy

First, let's get something straight.

There are no official SAAMI specifications for 'cowboy' ammunition.

Any ammunition you see on a store shelf that says 'cowboy' on it is just that manufacturer's idea of what a 'cowboy' load should be.

Let's back up even further. In the Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS) world, many competitors are shooting very light loads that have very little recoil. This is so they can put all five shots (yes five, not six) on the target very quickly. That is because CAS is scored by time, and the less time it takes to shoot, the better. Those who score very well and are also shooting 45 Colt are often shooting loads that have about as much recoil as a light 38 Special. This ammo is not available commercially, it is loaded by the individual shooters.

But the commercial 'cowboy' ammo you see on store shelves will have considerably more punch (and recoil) then the stuff some guys are shooting in CAS.

Next, a 45 Colt loaded with Black Powder will have much, much more recoil than the mouse fart loads some guys shoot in CAS. Stop and think about it for a moment. 45 Colt was developed in 1873, and the case capacity is huge. It is huge because Black Powder, pound for pound, does not have as much energy as most Smokeless powders. So a large case was necessary for a man stopping load in Black Powder with 45 Colt. The often quoted specification was 40 grains of Black Powder under a 250 grain bullet.

Modern 45 Colt brass does not have quite as much powder capacity as the old 19th Century Balloon Head brass, so case capacity is a little bit less. My typical Black Powder 45 Colt ammo has about 33 grains of Schuetzen FFg under a 250 grain bullet. Here are the components of my Black Powder 45 Colt ammunition.

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As can be seen in this photo, my Black Powder 45 Colt ammo is no mouse fart, it has stout recoil. In this particular photo I am firing a 2nd Gen Colt loaded with my Black Powder 45 Colt ammo.

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Next, let's talk about paper. There are two completely different types of Black Powder loads that use paper. The loads that have been pictured so far are pre-made Black Powder loads meant for a percussion (cap & ball) revolver. There is no case because in a percussion revolver the ammo is ignited by a percussion cap on the nipples of the cylinder. This is really no different than pouring Black Powder into the chambers and then seating a ball on top, except the powder has been pre-measured at home, rather than pouring in the powder and seating a ball while at the range.

The other type of ammunition that used paper was a type developed a long time ago. This was called paper patched ammunition. The bullet was wrapped in paper and seated over the powder charge in a primed case. The bullets were slightly undersized and it was the paper that actually engaged the rifling in the barrel. Paper patched ammo was mostly used for large caliber rifles, such as 45-70 and larger. Watch the movie Quigley Down Under sometime if you want to see paper patched ammo being used. These rounds are not suitable for a revolver.


So. If you want to preload BP ammo for a percussion revolver, you do not need a press. However the guy you spoke to did not know what he was talking about, if you want to load Black Powder into brass cases, you will need a press.

This is my old Lyman Spartan single stage press that I first learned to load ammunition on. It is perfectly suited to loading either Smokeless or Black Powder ammunition. These days I only use it for my Black Powder 45-70 ammo. The tool in the background is a separate primer seating tool that I use with my old single stage press.

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However, these days I use a progressive Hornady Lock And Load AP progressive press to load all my BP 'pistol' ammunition. This photo shows a batch of 44-40 being loaded with Black Powder on my Hornady press.

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OK, now let's talk about the Remington 1858 Cap & Ball revolver. This is my old EuroArms 1858 that I bought way back in 1975. About twenty years ago I bought a 45 Colt Conversion Cylinder for it. It is wearing its Conversion Cylinder in this photo. The interesting thing about the 1858 Remington is that even though it is referred to as a '44' caliber revolver, the actual rifling groove diameter was more like about .451 or so, the same diameter as a 45 Colt revolver. I won't bother to explain why right now.

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There were several competing designs for conversion cylinders for the 1858 Remington on the market back then. One was the design by Walt Kirst. Because of the diameter of the Remington 1858 cylinder, it was not possible to bore six chambers into a cylinder for the 1858 Remington without the cartridge rims overlapping each other. So Kirst's cylinders all had only five chambers. About this time Ken Howell came up with a clever work around to this problem. By angling the chambers ever so slightly at the rear it was possible to fit six chambers into his cylinders for the 1858 Remington. The angle was so slight that it did not affect accuracy. Howell patented his design, and for a while his cylinders were only available through Taylor's Firearms. Not too much later, Howell sold the rights to his patent to Taylor's so that when he started his own company he was not able to offer the patented six chamber design for the 1858 Remington. A few years ago the patent expired, so Howell can now offer the angled cylinders he designed all those years ago from his own company. You will notice one of the photos above shows Howell's literature.

Here is a photo of my old 1858 with its 45 Colt conversion cylinder.

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In this photo you can see that not only will this conversion cylinder accept 45 Colt ammo without the rims over lapping, it will also accept 45 Schofield ammo, with their larger rims, without the rims overlapping. More about that in a moment.

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Yes, you can shoot relatively mild Smokeless ammo out of these cylinders. The literature that comes with them says to limit the velocity to 750 fps to 850 fps, but that is a meaningless specification. It is PRESSURE that is important when keeping a revolver cylinder from blowing up, not velocity. 750 fps to 850 fps can be achieved with many different Smokeless powders, some of which may exceed the pressure limits for these revolvers.


Study this photo for a moment. It shows my 1858 Remington at the top, and a Colt Single Action Army at the bottom. Notice the grip designs. Notice there is more space between the grip and the trigger guard with the Colt than with the Remington. I discovered a long time ago that the stout recoil of Black Powder 45 Colt in my old Remington pounded the knuckle of my index finger. The slightly longer distance makes shooting BP 45 Colt acceptable in my Colts, but I generally shoot 45 Schofield ammo in the Remington. The shorter Schofield case has less powder capacity, and I use a 200 grain bullet in my Schofield ammo.


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PS. Here is a photo of the components of my Black Powder 45 Schofield ammo. Starline 45 Schofield case, about 28.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg, and a 200 grain Big Lube bullet. Less recoil than m BP 45 Colt ammo.

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I gotta try that Schofield, but a very nice gent sent me 50 of the 45 CS brass. I don't have any dies yet, not even sure how to load them!
I'll be honest, I prefer my New Model Army with the conversion cylinder. And you are right - thumper loads will get your knuckles! For some reason the grip frame is longer in the 1875, when I shot one in 44-40 it was a dream. When I get one in 45 Colt it's gonna see some of the Holy Black!
 
Howdy Again

The 45 Cowboy Special (45CS) was developed for light loads in Cowboy Action Shooting. It is basically the same as a 45 ACP except that it has the same rim shape as a 45 Colt. So it can be loaded in a single action revolver chambered for 45 Colt. 45CS has the same powder capacity as 45 ACP. You can use 45 ACP dies to load 45CS, but you will need a shell holder or shell plate for 45 Colt. For Smokeless you can use the same 45 ACP recipes in 45CS. I have never loaded 45CS with Black Powder, but with the reduced powder capacity the powder charge would be less than with 45 Schofield. Just fill the case with enough BP so the powder is compressed between 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated.

In this photo, from left to right the rounds are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45CS, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP.

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By the way, I use a 45 Colt die set for 45 Schofield, but I have them set for the shorter length of the 45 Schofield cartridge. Because the rim is larger in diameter, a shell plate or shell holder for 45 Schofield is needed.

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The wider diameter rim of the 45 Schofield was developed for the Smith and Wesson Top Break Schofield revolver. The rim needed to be larger in diameter than 45 Colt so the extractor mechanism could get a good grip on the rims for extraction.

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You are correct about the grip of the 1875 cartridge Remington. Much more space between the trigger guard and the grip than with the 1858 model. This one is an original, chambered for 44-40.

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In one of his books Mike Venturino talks about how inaccurate the originals chambered for 44-40 were. Something to do with the cylinders originally having been chambered for the 44 Remington cartridge, which used a heeled bullet of larger diameter. When reamed for 44-40, the chamber mouths were too big and inaccuracy resulted. This 1875 Remington was barely able to keep all five of my BP 44-40 rounds on the paper at only 15 feet from a rest. I was just glad the bullets were not key holing when they hit the targets.

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There is also more space between the trigger guard and the grip with the 1875 Remington than with a Colt.

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