Newb plan

J

jimmythegeek

New member
I am looking into shooting as a hobby. I figure I'm already 90% an expert because I kick ass at first person shooter video games. </sarcasm> Since I figure it'll take me at least a couple of days to turn into a cross between Dirty Harry and Rambo, I'm going to start with something inexpensive.

I'm making myself take the NRA Home Firearm Safety and the Basic Rifle classes before I get to buy anything. Though it's hard to wait. There's a lot of cool stuff out there. I am amused by the tendency to buy an inexpensive rifle and then pimp the hell out of it. MY plans are far more modest...just after market sights from tech-sites.com and a dragunov style stock from Advanced Technology Fiberforce Rifle Stock for a Marlin 795. Nothing fancy -it only doubles the cost :) Ok, I admit it: if I could put spinning rims on, i would.

Anyway, I have a game plan and would welcome comments and suggestions.

1) Take the intro classes
2) Get the rifle and practice at the range for a couple of weeks
3) Take the Appleseed course.
4) Practice some more
5) If I attain some level of proficiency, I get to move up in caliber.

I'm not sure what my definition of "proficiency" is. Passing the Appleseed Rifleman test would sure count, but I don't expect to do that. Not for a while, anyway.

So what's the next step? Does it make sense to move in increments or should I develop good habits with the .22 and jump to a decent hunting rifle in .270 +? Or the cheap and cheap to fire Mosin-Nagant? Then go back to the .22 to counter my new bad habits?

Eventually I may get an AR-15. I see conversion kits to shoot .22LR to save on ammo, as well as .22s pimped out like AR-15s (Looking at you S&W M&P15-22! Looking and drooling, but still.). Does that make any sense? Would training with something that superficially looks like an AR-15 be more helpful than using a plain Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 795 when it comes to actually using the AR-15?

I have a soft spot for the M1 carbine, since I got to fire one about 30 years ago. I expect finding a USGI in decent condition may be tough, but I just don't have any affinity for the SKS or AKM. Those two are cheaper to shoot, but I'm not drawn to them. If it's not appealing and fun, why bother? Anyway, it has enough kick to qualify as an intermediate step.

It's dawning on me that my plan to gradually increase in caliber is a disguise for putting together an awesome collection.

Definitely starting out with open sights.

Somewhere in this rambling post are a couple of real questions:

1) to learn to handle a rifle with a significant bark and bite, what should I jump to from .22LR ? A Mosin-Nagant apparently has plenty of both, for cheap.

2) If an AR-15 is in my future, is a conversion kit to .22LR like cmmg sells, or a lookalike in .22LR like the S&W M&P15-22 any use? Why not just practice with a stock .22LR? Sure, they look cool...and that's probably enough. Just wondering if anyone has found real value in it as a trainer over and above a regular semi-auto .22LR.
 
Unless your shoulder is made of glass jumping from the .22lr directly to the higher caliber you want isn't going to be a problem if you have the fundamentals down. The higher caliber is just going to mean more kick.
 
Congratulations on deciding to go into the shooting sports! And you seem to take it as a serious business, we can only applaud such things :)

I think the plan to start with a .22LR and move up from there is especially good for learning to shoot the rifle. I'll add this from the start: don't forget to practice off-hand shooting! A lot of shooters only practice prone/sitting with their rifles, and when they suddenly feel the need of shooting offhand, they have to fill the gap. So if you practice both supported and unsupported shooting from the beginning with a 22, you'll see that later on the bigger guns will be easier too.

Unless you're planning to go hunting medium game on great distances (which I strongly suspect you won't do after just achieving your "proficiency"), I see no need for the .270 considering their ammo cost. Bolt action rifles in .223, .308, .30-06 (although I prefer the .308, I feel like the thirty aught is obsolete...) or the 7.62x54mmR would be cheaper to shoot, and will likely do anything you want it to, except for the 223 maybe.

I have a soft spot for the M1 carbine [...] but I just don't have any affinity for the SKS or AKM.
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I found this to be quite odd. You do know the SKS and M1 Carbine are mechanically very similar don't you? Both are short stroke gas piston 2 lug rotary bolt designs, both fire a carbine round (although quite different ones). The M1 Carbine is a bit handier and lighter if I remember well, but the SKS a bit more accurate and potent.

Besides, just wondering, what exactly are your reasons for getting an AR-15? Game related?
 
I agree with 9-ball jumping from a .22 RF to a .270 is not that practical. I also recommend the 4 position shooting prone sitting kneeling and standing.

The .270 is an excellent round but it lacks the inexpensive quality you seek. M-1 carbine is nice light and handy, accuracy at 100 yards is fair to excellent depending on the barrel on the gun a shot out barrel is worthless and finding an excellent gun can prove expensive.
There are many inexpensive bolt action rifles out there in a whole range of calibers. If you want a semi-auto rifle and a large caliber and a Military type rifle go to the .308 caliber less recoil than 30-06 and less expensive to shoot.

AR-15 can be a great gun with one exception the price. .223 has a light recoil and a fast muzzle velocity, accurate in a target, rifle rounds are inexpensive. On the down side susceptible to deflection from high wind and have an effective range of only 300 meters.

I think that it is good that you wish to go the way of learning the sport rather than buying a hot rod firearm and have no knowledge of the fundamentals and safety. The key to accuracy is practice, practice, practice.
Good luck

Mace
 
Actually, you're better off doing the Appleseed shoot as a newb....less bad habits to lose.

Sign up for the new "Rifleman's Opportunity Card" ($20) when you attend the shoot and you can attend Appleseed shoots FREE until you: A. Qualify as a "Rifleman" (210 or higher on their AQT) B. RWVA card expires after 1 year.

Great deal, would have saved me $150...I had to attend 3 shoots to qualify.

Ben
 
Video games don't teach you to shoot any more then video games teach you to drive. You are not 90% there regardless what you do with a video game.

What ever you do, before you fire your first round, get some training/coaching. Appleseed, CMP Clinics (Rimfire Sporter), 4-H shooting sports, etc,

Start there before you deside what rifle to get.
 
You do realize the OP was joking?

I was where you were not long ago. Start off with a good .22lr bolt action. CZ, Remington and others have or do make good bolt action .22lr rifles, the CZ rifles come highly recommended.

A Mosin was my next rifle, and it does indeed have a sharp recoil to it. Those 1 inch rubber buttpads are a very good investment.

I discourage an AR for first time rifle, but thats a personal taste. They're overpriced for what you get.

I'm curious as to why you don't like the SKS or AK, they're both very good rifles and some of the nicer ones are capable of 2MOA, and some crappy quality ARs can't even do that. If its a question of a preference for synthetics, there are plenty of AKs out there with synthetic furniture. &.62 and 5.45 are very cheap to shoot as well. If you really have a video game background to it, the 90% of all FPS games overrate the AR patten rifles. Especially with the .223 you need to be careful with shot placement, as with any small round especially if you plan on hunting, and also don't buy into the M4 length ARs, they have much poorer accuracy and lethality because of the velocity loss.

Good luck with your hobby. And remember BE SAFE!
 
Welcome to the small world of Weapons. I agree with kraigwy. Video games do not do anything to teach you to shoot. They are for entertainment only. You are no where close to even thinking you know what your doing. Why do you want to jump onto the AR? I had a friend that thought he knew what he was doing because he plays call of duty modern warfare 2, and he had to spend 600$ on range repairs. If you start with the mosin nagant you can kiss your unbruised shoulder good bye. It is the Russian equivalent to the .308. If you are fresh to shooting start small with a cheap .22 bolt. Don't jump to the high $$ AR platform until you are ready, granted the .223 is low recoil great for targeting Accurate to 600 yards, the ammo is expensive as well as the bullet is very light and the wind will affect the shot allot. The .22 bolt teaches you how to make your rounds count,and to take your time when you are shooting with the rifle having low recoil, muzzle rise and being the cheapest rifles on the market Start with the classes, then buy a rifle. You have a good plan but it does take quite a bit of $$$ to shoot as a hobby. if you rely want to become a competent shooter, join the USMC, or find a USMC DI to teach you to shoot.
 
Hey, go easy on him.
It's a joke here in Europe that Americans don't understand irony/sarcasm, and apparently some really don't. He even mentioned it!

</sarcasm>
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If you start with the mosin nagant you can kiss your unbruised shoulder good bye.
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He did state he wanted to start with a .22 LR, no need to criticize him for decisions he didn't make.

if you rely want to become a competent shooter, join the USMC, or find a USMC DI to teach you to shoot.
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No need to push anyone into military service too. If you feel the urge to become a soldier, really, go for it. But joining the USMC/Army to learn to shoot is really a stupid plan.
 
Why AR-15? Mentally I'm still under 25

"Until a man is twenty-five, he still thinks, every so often, that under the right circumstances he could be the baddest <obscenity> in the world. If I moved to a martial-arts monastery in China and studied real hard for ten years. If my family was wiped out by Colombian drug dealers and I swore myself to revenge. If I got a fatal disease, had one year to live, and devoted it to wiping out street crime. If I just dropped out and devoted my life to being bad. Hiro used to feel this way, too, but then he ran into Raven. In a way, this was liberating. He no longer has to worry about being the baddest <obscenity> in the world. The position is taken. " Neal Stephenson, _Snow Crash_

It's hard to get the tone just right in a forum, though even face to face people have a hard time getting each other completely. I don't actually think FPS video games have made me an expert, but I'm sure we've all met folks who do think their skeelz are transferable. What I'm trying to do is mock that little piece of me that thinks that way, and recognize that it's in there before it gets me into trouble.

I think getting the AR-15 is a long ways out for me. It's appeal for me is that it's outstanding in a class of firearms. For simple target shooting, the Marlin 795 sounds great. Zen discipline, an article largely for putting holes in paper, seeing how good I can get. But as a *weapon*, the AR-15 represents about as much as I can have, as a civilian. To compare it to the world of transportation, the 795 is a Subaru, the AR-15 a Ferrari that actually starts. If I were a pilot, the 795 is a Piper Cub, the AR-15 is an F-15. I can't afford a Ferrari. I could probably swing the AR-15.

I don't feel a need for it. Not much call for combat rifles in my line of work. If home defense were a priority, I'd focus on a shotgun. (My risk assessment is that the odds of needing it are low enough that I won't bother - I'm sure lots of folks here have reached different conclusions.) It's just a want. If I were musically inclined, I'd want an outstanding guitar. Pretty much any example of human ingenuity at a high level, I'm into it. As for the SKS and AKM, for the same rationality-free reasons, I don't want. By all accounts they do what they are called on to do, and they are cheaper to feed than most. Maybe as I get into it that last point will weigh more heavily in what passes for my thinking.

Thanks for all the responses.
 
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that it's outstanding in a class of firearms
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I think your gaming experience does kick in here :) But if you'd specify that class as "medium distance semi-automatic target rifles" I'd agree whole heartedly ;)

As I mentioned before, I support your idea of starting with a .22 LR and moving on from there. I didn't get into detail on your weapon choice however. As much as you'd be tempted to take a semi-automatic (yes, I faced the same desires), I'd strongly suggest you to take a bolt action rifle. I don't have personal experiences with Marlin (they are hardly sold over here afaik), but with other semi-autos the trend was very clear: for the same amount of money, the bolt-actions were way more accurate and reliable. The used market is usually flooded with 22LR bolt actions, so if you look around a bit, you may be able to get a sweet deal on a high quality rifle.
 
Money changes everything.
There are lots of good used .22 bolt actions in the used section of your local gun store. If it's rust free and functions smoothly, the odds are it'll be fine.
If you have the funds a CZ Lux would be a good high end choice.

I would lean toward the Marlin Model 60 for inexpensive semi-auto fun. If you want a semi that can be modified to look like an evil black rifle, then the Ruger 10/22 is your best bet.

There's nothing wrong with AR-15 style .22s. I've heard good things about the S&W 15-22. But imho you're paying a premium for style.

Not a fan of starting with an AR-15 and a .22 conversion kit. That's a large chunk of change for a rifle you may end up not liking.

As far as getting "good", one of the best ways is to get involved in competition. Besides being fun you get lots of support from others involved with the sport.
 
Major props for the Snow Crash reference! One of my favorite books of all time.

Don't be too hard on the OP, we all start somewhere and we are all brought to the world of guns in different ways. It used to be dad or grandpa teaching you, but nowadays people come to firearms from videogames. Best to get used to it and teach those who are interested to carry on the tradition.

I do feel some sadness for my country that your sarcasm was overlooked even after directly pointing it out...
 
priorities

Heh, just priced out some some stuff, and it looks like I'll be spending more on the safe than the first couple of rifles. I think I'm doing it right. As the wife put it, "How'd you feel if YOUR weapon was stolen and used in a crime?" I don't want to find out, and if I do find out I want to be able to tell myself I did what I could.

Mind you, I don't see the Marlin 795 in a lot of police reports.

And there's a definite upside: nature, and gun collectors, abhor a vacuum. I'll have to fill that safe to get my money's worth - otherwise it's wasted capacity! I'll see what she thinks of that logic...

Another definite plus: a woman who grinds her own flour for homemade bread is temperamentally suited for reloading.
 
@Jimmythegeek

From one gamer to another, you have to be completely serious when it comes to firearms, as a game like Metal Gear or Call of Duty, its up to the designers how they stack against each other. In real life it has less to do with the gun and more with the shooter, but a better gun does help in some ways.

An example, in the game Goldeneye 64 the M16, know as the AR-33, can penetrate bullet resistant glass, while the AK47, known as the KF-7 Soviet, cannot. In real life, neither of them in the most common bullet types can pierce modern bullet resistant glass. There are other things that video games don't account for, such as bullet drop, canted sights and shooter related issues, like flinching.

The AR is not so much a Ferrari, In my opinion H&K is a much better comparison, but like in real life your mileage may vary with each individual specimen, many ARs cannot do the Sub-MOA groups, especially in full auto fire, likewise not all Ferraris will be able to go 200+ MPH. With anything custom it is important to choose quality, even for parts like the hammer or the trigger.

I encourage you to try the rifle you decide on before you buy, and no, I don't necessarily mean shoot it. Hold it in your hand, ask the owner if you can dry fire and handle it. Most importantly, if you've never cleaned or field stripped the gun, use youtube or better yet have a qualified person show you how to do it and walk you through the steps.
 
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