New to SGs. Here's what I want -- suggestions?

R

roberts_usmc

New member
I've done a little research and I am drawn to the Rem 870 and the Moss 500 because they seem to be good weapons and they are less expensive.

I don't really hunt. I like to shoot though, and would want something capable of home defense. But, honestly, I can already defend my home, so that's not the TOP concern. I like to shoot, and I like what I'm shooting to "fit" and suit me. I would do a little skeet shooting, blow some water bottles away, that type of thing. I really want a pistol grip on whatever shotgun I buy, because the M16 and M249 have pistol grips so its just what I feel comfortable with and enjoy. What pistol grip packages would you all recommend?

Are there any legal issues whatsoever with modifications on shotguns?

I really want a semi-auto shotgun, but I cannot pay the money on something like that -- or have I overlooked some models?

I don't want a musket-length shotgun. If I do decide to hunt with it, it seems 26-28" would be a must. How much more of a scatter is there with a 18-22" barrell at say, 50M?

Thanks for the input!
 
Mine the archives, there's tons of input on your questions.

Keep your shotgun stock until you've reached some proficiency. Then, you'll make better decisions on what it and you need.

A stock with a separate PG offers no advantage and some drawbacks. Having only a PG is egregious except under very special circumstances. Learning to use a standard stock is not difficult.

An 870 Express with both a long barrel for birds and clays and a short barrel for slugs, practical games and defense covers ALL the bases for less than a week's pay. Take care of it and your descendants will have it for food, protection and recreation for a century or more.
 
Both of your choices are excellent guns. I wrote a page on HD shotgun selection and mods that might interest you.

Legally (without federal tax stamps), your barrel must be over 18 inches long. The total length must be over 26 inches. It cannot be full auto. After that, Bob's your uncle. Keep it simple, and effective. I believe Choate makes a full stock with a pistol grip that is pretty decent quality. Stay away from the universal stocks that use an adapter to swap from brand to brand of gun.
 
roberts_usmc,
Welcome to TFL!

I agree with Dave and XavierBreath, Get a gun that fits YOU, a combo set (long barrel for clays/ hunting, and a short one for turkey, deer, or serious situations) is a smart way to go.

Important is the simple fact One cannot shoot, what they cannot see, meaning the Shotgun is a extension of the shooter, the "rear sight" is the shotgunner's eyes. The shotgun MUST FIT the shooter. Hence the reason I prefer a wood stocked gun, so the gun's LOP, cast, pitch,...etc., can be adjusted to fit shooter better.

Shotguns are pointed - not aimed. Clay shooters often pre-mount the gun, and yes you can miss "with all them pellets", clay shooters in Skeet / Trap are shooting targets at known distances, and flight paths - they do miss.

One does NOT have time to "scrunch" around a shotgun to get everthing lined up so it will shoot where pointed, be it clays, live game or serious situations - Gun Fit is that critical.

We seem to have two types of shotgunners, or shooters of anything on Internet Forums, and real life. 1) Folks whom train with firearms that fits them for tasks, 2) Folks that collect firearms, firearm accessories, and do not train, cannot shoot. They 'gots cool toys' tho'.
I am not speaking of collecting firearms for investment, sentimental, or historical appreciation and preservation either.

Remington, Winchester, Mossberg all make great combo guns, try for fit as to what fits you, then tweak it, get train training. IF after attending training YOU learn YOU need something like a light, then go with it. Train first, then make modifications IF need.

Ithaca makes great guns, and in the used Gun Market, there are some great buys in these , the aforementioned, and even semi autos such as 1100s and Beretta offerings. New Semis, Win SuperX2 is a winner.

--

XB,
I enjoyed your page. I appreciate your perspective and have really appreciated your posts and input after your sharing of experiences during Hurricane relief efforts, thank you again.
Gotta ask tho'...you got something against electrical tape? :p
You made me miss my old Sharpfinger I lost...:D


Steve
 
Thanks for the information!

That is a good point about keeping the SG stock until getting use to it. I believe in a pistol grip because from a tactical standpoint it makes the weapon much more controllable and less easily leveraged away from you IMO. As far as the training to use the weapon -- I assume its really no different than any other weapon? -- Correct? I've already got all kinds of training, CQB, CQM, etc, etc so as long as employing a shotgun for those type of uses (well, of course that would only occur in a home defense situation with whatever shotgun I buy) is similar I should be fine.

-Derek
 
As far as the training to use the weapon -- I assume its really no different than any other weapon?
Click to expand...
Yes and no..........
If you are working a pump shotgun, the real danger in a SHTF scenerio is short stroking. This is a tendency we all will display if placed under stress with a pump shotgun. The desire to trim a little time on shucking the cob is always there, and will bite your butt every time. Semi-auto weapons do the work for you. On a pump, you become part of the machine, and you must do your part. Training under stress to eliminate the tendency to short stroke is IMHO necessary, just like training under stress to thumb the safety off on a 1911.
I recommend courses of fire with a HD shotgun that are the same as you would shoot with a pistol. Multiple targets, different heights, distances, shooting from cover and while moving, etc...
 
Mossberg makes an autoloader that is a good reliable and reasonably priced gun, the Remington 1100 is probably a better gun IMO. You can get lots of after market stocks and if this is highly important you might be happier to stick to the moss. 500 as all these accessories can add up fast.For funcionality I personally would say there is very little difference between the 870 and the 500, the 870 will generally have prettier wood and usually a better finish(some people really hate the matte finish on the 870 express).On the other hand the mossberg is cheaper in price.

Mossberg sells "stock drop spacers" to change the angle of the stock to the reciever, Remington may also have a similar system, I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE.
This makes it possible to change the point of aim and these sell for $10-20.


By the way, just want to thank you for your service. Nothing makes me sleep better at night than knowing the Marines are on the job.
 
94% recoil reduction? Really? That means that if a gun has 10 lbs. of recoil to start with, after putting on a Knoxx specops stock, it will have only .6 lbs of recoil!

Now I know why Steven Wright says that 42.7% of all statistics are made up.

What basis is there for the claim that "a Knoxx specops stock ... reduces recoil" by any specified percentage? There is one way, and only one way, a stock can reduce recoil, and that is to increase the weight of the gun.

The most that can be said about the recoil-reducing nature of a stock that does not result in a net weight gain (over the stock that you are replacing) is that it reduces felt, or perceived, recoil. And how in the world would you quantify that? You might feel that it reduces perceived recoil by 1/3 and I might feel it reduces recoil by 1/2, but I can't see how anyone can come up with a number that implies the kind of precision that 94% implies.

That said, I've heard good things about the Knoxx specops stock.

--Rick
 
Thanks for the info guys, and I appreciate the kind words salber.

Just one question that is yet to be answered:
What's the difference in the scatter normally from a certain distance with a 20" vs a 26" barrel?
 
I think they say the 28" to 30" is the optimum length for pattern dispersal but my best guess would be approximately one choke level between the 20" and 26"(example, modified in26"=improved modified in 20")
it might not even be that much .
Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in here, I would also be interested in some tested answers to this question.
 
Try a vertical butt stroke with your AR, Roberts. It's easier with a standard shotgun stock.

As for being leveraged away, kindly point me towards any real world after action debriefs where this happened. Thanks.....
 
I don't have any real world evidence on that, I just happen to feel that way personally - so I'll just say - perception is reality. :)

A vertical buttstroke is really not much harder with an M16/AR15 than a weapon with no pistol grip. If you are use to striking that was you can keep your hand on the PG and do the strike correctly. The difference in the power of the stroke is really nominal when you compare a pistol gripped weapon to one without. And since we are talking close combat - most shotgun don't have a bayo lug. :rolleyes:

I appreciate your thought on the PG thing, but I really believe a pistol grip allows for faster target acquisition.
 
One is welcome to use and train with whatever they feel best and comfortable with.

We have had w-a-y too many PG and PGO threads. Many got heated , some locked down.

Now Dave and others have some special skills and training.

As far as "faster target aquistion" - well Live Pigeon shooters, as well as Int'l skeet and Int'l trap folks have to aquire respective targets from low gun position pretty darn fast.

Sporting clays and 5 stand is pretty quick. Heck gray missles and Gawga Quail ain't neccessarily slow. :p

I do not use a PG on my shotguns. Besides everyone knows *ahem* Wood and Blue guns are the fastest. *grin*
 
Perception isn't reality in Shotgunland, roberts.

For the record, I was paid to shoot PG shotguns and teach others to do so. Chances are, I have as much experience with them as the rest of this thread's contributors combined.

None of the shotguns here have separate PGs. That's reality.
 
Thanks for the input all!

Perhaps we should agree to disagree Dave.

I like the pistol grip, you don't.

We eat have our share of specialized training, but since I never really dealt with a SG in my training, I'll ask you this: Do you feel that a pistol grip allows the shooter to control the recoil of the weapon and put the weapon back on target more quickly.
To me the wrist is in a less "binded" position when the weapon is shouldered and the elbow tucked. Additionally, I feel that by using a pistol grip your firing hand can better stabalize the weapon because it is in a better position to support the weight. Do you agree on this point or does your experience point to something else?
 
It's not just my opinion, roberts. Clay shooters, especially trap shooters, willl use any advantage possible to get that last bird out of 100. Few have separate PGs, even thumbhole stocks are scarce as patriots in Congress.

I'm not as up on 3 gun stuff, but I see few PGs on their shotguns.

On a pure fighting, "serious" shotgun, vs a game or recreational arm, the commonality of "Chops" may render a separate PG stock more desirable, but I doubt there's much difference either way in recoil control.

You may want to try out each style and compare time and scores. If a PG equipped stock works as well or better, I'd like to hear about it.
 
"How much more of a scatter is there with a 18-22" barrell at say, 50M?

What's the difference in the scatter normally from a certain distance with a 20" vs a 26" barrel?"
------------------

Pattern size is more a function of choke constriction than barrel length. Modern ammunition burns all its powder charge in a relatively short time and any barrel of a length not complicated with additional paperwork and fees (Federal law requires 18" minimum barrel length) will serve to completely burn the charges in most loads. I have several 18.5" barrels fitted for choke tubes that can pattern as tightly as the same choke in a 10" longer barrel.

Patterning is more magic than science, every shotgun barrel tends to be a law unto itself. It is difficult to make sweeping generalizations but some generalities do apply. Here are some explanations:

http://www.remington.com/whatsnew/brrls_choke/sgbct_3.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_chokes.htm

http://www.cabelas.com/information/...rmsTechniques/UnderstandingShotgunChokes.html

hth,

lpl/nc
 
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