New to black powder... have some questions

G

GolfGuy

New member
Hello all,

I'm Steve, I'm happy to have found this forum. I just purchased an 1858 Army .44 cal Stainless Steel revolver w/ starter kit from Cabelas.

I also purchased a pound of Pyrodex P, and #11 Remington percussion caps and a box of .44 cal 180 gr. conical bullets.

I am an avid gun owner but have never owned or fired a black powder gun, rifle or revolver. I have always wanted one so I did some research and went ahead and made the purchase.

My first question is this... the started kit comes with 'fiber wads' but everything I've read says that wads are not needed between the powder and ball, in fact most say that is a dangerous pratice. Why would the starter kit come with them if this is not recommended?

Next, I was torn between 30 grain pelets and loose powder, I went with loose powder so I could adjust the load if I so desired.

Which brings me to my next question... what is the maximum safe load for this gun? I am a pretty cautious person but I'm not opposed to increasing the load if there is an advantage, i.e. more velocity, better accuracy etc... if a heavier load is not really beneficial then its not something that I want to do. Just wondering what is best.

Also, I bought conicals just because of my preconceived notion that modern bullets are conical. Is there any advantage or disadvantage to conicals versus round balls?

Also, I read in one of the posts that it is possible to convert a .44 cal 1858 Army to fire 45 LC cartriges. Just out of curiousty how is this done and is it really recommended?

Thanks in advance to all who respond!

Steve
 
4V50Gary- That link is worth its weight in gold! What more do I need to know? Nothing. Outstanding, that is publication worthy! "Everything you need to know about black powder revolvers but didn't know where to look."

And yes, you are right, its not the most powerful load but the most accurate, that's what I meant, whatever the guns performs best at is what I want to load.

Also, what about conicals versus balls? Any difference in accurancy?
 
Percussion Pistols And Revolvers : History, Performance and Practical Use by Mike Cumpston (MEC) is well worth having too. I have the softcover one but you can get the downloadable one from Amazon.com. The pictures are excellent but don't show up too good in the softcover, so that's the advantage of the downloadable version. MEC's book link here at TFL

Now, as to accuracy, I can't help you there since I've only used round ball in my Ruger Old Army.

Here's the data from Lyman's BP Handbook:

.451 ball (138 grain) Ox-yoke wad, Goex FFFg,
20 grains, Muzzle Velocity 640, Muzzle Energy 126, Vel (at 25 yds) 610, Ener (at 25 yds) 114.
22.5 grains, 664, 135, 632, 123
25 grains, 727, 162, 692, 147
27.5 grains, 760, 177, 723, 160
30 grains, 794, 193, 754, 174
32.5 grains, 81.2, 202, 770, 182
35 grains, 848, 220, 803, 198

.451 ball (138 grain) Ox-yoke wad, Elephant FFFg,
20 grains, 623, 119, 593, 108
22.5 gr, 649, 129, 618, 117
25 gr, 740, 168, 704, 152
27.5 gr, 778, 186, 739, 168
30 gr, 819, 206, 777, 185
32.5 gr, 843, 218, 798, 195
35 gr, 874, 234, 826, 209

.451 ball (138 grain), Ox-Yoke wad, Pyrodex P
20 grains, MV 739, 167, 703, 151
22.5 gr, 754, 174, 717, 158
25 gr, 847, 220, 802, 197
27.5 gr, 860, 227, 814, 203
30 gr, 896, 246, 845, 219
32.5 gr, 927, 263, 871, 233
35 gr, 979, 294, 914, 256

451 conical (180 gr), Ox-yoke wad, Goex FFF,
20 grains, MV 600, ME 144, Vel 573, Ener 131
22.5 gr, 623, 155, 595, 142
25 grn, 680, 185, 649, 169
27.5 gr, 727, 211, 694, 192
30 gr, 756, 258, 721, 208

.451 conical (180 gr), Ox-yoke wad, Elephant FFFg powder
20 grains, 606, 147, 579, 134
22.5gr, 674, 182, 644, 166
25 gr, 745, 222, 711, 202
27.5 gr, 778, 242, 742, 220

.451 conical (180 gr), Ox-yoke wad, Pyrodex P
20 gr, 587, 138, 561, 126
22.5 gr, 666, 177, 636, 162
25 gr, 724, 210, 691, 191
27.5 gr, 761, 232, 726, 211
30 gr, 802 Muz Vel, 257 ME, 764 (vel @ 25 yd), 233 (ener @ 25 yds)
 
Bullet accuracy depends a lot on the bullet. It can be better than we have been lead to expect. This is an off-hand target with a .44 bullet from the Lee Scissor Mould designed around original bullets. Lee conicals are good as are the modern designed buffalo bullets. Velocities on left are from Uberti 60 army and on right from remington uberti:
attachment.php


While the scissor mould bullets are the same design as the brass molds sold as decoration for cased sets, they are much better quality. A couple of weeks ago, I took some 100 grain 36 caliber bullets and shot a 3" 25 yard five shot group. All of my revolvers have the seating ram coned for good fit to these bullets to minimize distortion and promote straight seating. 19th century revolvers generaly had deep coned rams also.
 
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Pelets are not your normal powder choice for a pistol. In fact I don't think I have ever seen anybody use them. I just use loose powder, Prydex P in my case.

Converting a Remington 1858 only takes one thing, some spare money. About $200 or so. You buy a different cylinder from Taylorsfirearms or KirstKonverters websites. Then you just use the built in cylinder changing ability of the Remington design and put the cartridge cylinder into the frame with zero modifications neccessary, although to reload you take the cylinder back out of the pistol, and pull off the rear plate with the firing pins to get to the chambers.

lg_pierm101.jpg


Convertions like that are not that uncommon. You just use "Cowboy Load" ammo, which is just a fancy way of saying the bullets won't come out going more than 1,000 feet per second, which is well in the saftey margin of what blackpower can do (some loads can move the lead out at 1300 fps).
 
My first question is this... the started kit comes with 'fiber wads' but everything I've read says that wads are not needed between the powder and ball, in fact most say that is a dangerous pratice. Why would the starter kit come with them if this is not recommended?

Next, I was torn between 30 grain pelets and loose powder, I went with loose powder so I could adjust the load if I so desired.

Which brings me to my next question... what is the maximum safe load for this gun? I am a pretty cautious person but I'm not opposed to increasing the load if there is an advantage, i.e. more velocity, better accuracy etc... if a heavier load is not really beneficial then its not something that I want to do. Just wondering what is best.
Click to expand...

You don't have to use the fiber wads between powder and ball but it gives you some flexibility on how you load your gun. You'll get into that later, look for threads on here about the "lube pills" and you'll get a wealth of info. I load first powder, then dry wad, then lube pill, then seat the ball. This method works for me by keeping the powder fouling soft and all the moving parts lubricated and it is another protection against chainfires. It isn't dangerous to use a wad between powder and ball, that comes from some old literature I think and there is more information available now.

Check out this thread for a good heavy load which many of us use for a max load:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190241
 
Gatofeo has a strong preference for wads- he cuts them from felt and uses his own lubricant to treat them. Elmer Keith used wads cut from old hats having gotten the practice from surviving 19th century westerners. Nothing dangerous about it and the down side is that it's just one more step in the loading process.

I can't find any difference in accuracy between the wad loads and those without and velocity differences are inconsistent. Sometimes the same load will clock faster with wads and other times, the reverse. The big advantage -if it is a big one, is that the fouling cleans out a bit easier when you have a wad under the ball. This probably means that the fouling is building up slower but since, I wipe the barrel after every cylinder full, I really don't know the long term effects.
 
sundance44s

After years of shooting hte BP revolvers .. we just tend to do things with out even relizeing we are doing them .. things just flow when you are set up right to handle any problem that can come up .. even the fouling problems aren`t so much a problem when you relize there are just little things you can do to keep one running smooth for as long as you want to shoot . its just all part of it ,and everyone does things a little different .. but they are just doing what they`ve learned what works for them . I any case must not be work ..cause we seem to enjoy it too much , and we live and learn new things all the time , one can never have too much experience with the holy black ... if we aren`t out shooting it we are thinking about something we could do to improve things ..
 
Oh boy! I can tell right now that I'm going LOVE this new hobby of mine. I'm also a saiior, I have a 37' sailboat moored in Galveston and part of the attraction to sailing is the "tradition" , sailing today is pretty much exactly the same as it was 300 years ago, the equipment is a little more modern but the principle and tactics are exactly the same.

I feel the same way about black powder. In fact in the spirit of tradition, I'm now interested in buying a single shot, flint-lock type pistol, the kind that many naval officers and even pirates carried during the golden age of sail (1600-1800 ad) and even possibly getting a small cannon for my boat, I have seen some that are primarily cerimonial, that is , that don't fire shot but just go bang! Why not be able to fire shot? After all , a cruising sailboat on the ocean has a definite and international maritime law, says that any boat on the sea may carry arms to defend itself, so why not a small cannon?

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, I first need to learn how to handle and shoot my 1858 Army.

I have much to learn about BP in the mean time and I'm glad I found this fourm, you all have been very helpful!

Nice pics by the way Mec and weird guy, mec, you must be a professional, that pic is 'advertising quality'. Nice Job man!

Also, weird guy- I am interested in finding a conversion cylinder, I currently have a Charter Arms, 3 screw .45 LC but the idea of firing the 1858 Rem with 45 LC appeals to me, I checked the links you gave and that is very cool, although I need to find a stainless steel cylinder, and haven't been able to locate one, any ideas?

Thanks all!

Steve
 
By the way Mec... Again nice picture! I looked at it long and hard and the 1858 Army is really a beautiful weapon. It doesn't look 148 years old, it looks like a gun that commands respect! I guess our modern day revolvers have deviated very little from the original design... frame, cylinder, barrel... big loud bang!

I have learned that the BP revolvers are as formidable (and accurate) a weapon as a modern handgun, I feel for the hapless soul on the receiving end of one!

Thanks again!
 
45 LC conversion cylinder

Guys ! If youre looking for R and D or kirst conversion cylinder, try looking at www.buffaloarms.com. Got 2 for my 44 remington pietta for almost $30.00 less each than midway or taylor.
 
If DHart gets interested in percussion you'll see some outstanding studio quality photography. He posts regularly on thehighroad in the revolver and semi-auto sites.

I've heard rumors that there are platforms or barges in international waters where you can rent RPGs. Handy thing for people servicing oil rigs and such. A nice BP parrot rifle on the deck of your sail boat would be nice. I don't know the etiquet on shooting pirates but I suppose you could just let 'em sink.
 
tatso7- nice site, I'm sure I'll give them some business but I didn't see a stainless conversion cylinder.

mec- Haven't heard of renting RGP's, I'll have to look into that. I do know that among sailors who cruise remote waters having firearms on board is highly recommended. Pirates are still a very real thing, however they don't swing from yardarms and carry swords in their teeth anymore, they drive speed boats and carry automatic weapons.

I have read several accounts of sailboats being attacked, especially at night, and of the accounts I've read several have said that putting a shot or two across their bow has changed their mind. I guess if they know you're armed they lose interest quickly.

A small cannon should get that point across fairly well I would imagine. And international maritime law allows for any vessel the ability to defend itself against attackers, by 'whatever means necessary'.

I'm sure a small cannon would get their attention, knowing that a hit at the water line would/could sink even the largest of vessels. I don't know what a 'Parrot Rifle' is, is that something I should look into?

But I digress, this thread is to learn how to fire, handle and clean my 1858 Army revolver, an intimidating weapon in it's own.

Steve
 
Ohh...! I looked up parrot rifle, it's a CANNON! "Thar she blows matey!" I think I have to have one now, I can mount a bracket on the foredeck of my sailboat and bring her out when needed.

That would be quite a sight eh? A 37' sailboat with a cannon on the foredeck, if I were a pirate I would think twice about attacking a boat with a cannon.

Thanks for the info! You've given me yet another thing to add to the wish list!
 
I too am a Cap and ball NUT!

I use traditional black power but I dont fault any one for using any of the newer powers.
My one suggestion is even if you use felt pads, which I think are not needed you should still use some kind of grease in front of the ball.
I use a product called "spitball" but there are many.
The one thing that makes C&B guns dangerious is having more than one cylinder go off when the gun is fired. Some people are content with just the felt pads, I only use the grease.
Welcome and have fun.
 
sundance44s

These drop in`s are great ..and ya can still use yer cab & ball cylinder too .. the best of both worlds ....and watch Eastwood do a reload with one on the movie Pale Rider .. its cool :cool:
 
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