New Orleans, again

3

308Enfield

New member
I don't have a specific start to this thread, but given the history I thought it would make for interesting discussion. The state of Louisiana has just ordered the National Guard into New Orleans following several killings over the weekend.

First, with appropriate sarcasm, I thought that since they unlawfully took everybody's guns away in the days following Katrina there would never be any more violence in the city.

Second, what are the legal ramifications of enforcing law with the National Guard? I don't see the deployment to the border being an issue because in that case the National Guard is acting to help prevent foreigners from illegally entering the United States, a basic military responsibility. But in New Orleans, they're being asked to enforce law against U.S. citizens. Do six killings really justify deployment of the Guard like a riot situation would?

Third, how prepared are our National Guardsmen to exert deadly force in an American city? I respect anyone who serves our country in uniform, and commend the Guard for their service, but to my knowledge they are not trained in urban law enforcement. It seems to me that a military rifle could cause problems as someone's primary response to an armed threat due to overpenetration and other issues in an urban area.

I'm prepared to just let this discussion find its own direction, as I've brought up several topics. Admins - if this needs to be broken up or moved, I'd welcome you doing whatever you think best. Since there are several firearms-related questions in here I'm hoping it won't get closed:)
 
Yeah, I find it interesting that the newly-re-elected joke of a mayor can't control crime in his city after he disarmed all the law-abiding citizens, and so has to plead & whine for the state to send him the national guard. It ain't rocket surgery, nincompoop Nagin...
 
As has been said many, many times before, the job of the military is to kill people and break stuff. How exactly does this job description match NOLA's needs?

(ranting about blatant violation of posse comitatus sidelined for now...)
 
The National Guard are actually state troops (read: Militia) unless they have been federalized (called by the President, pursuant to an act of Congress). Posse Comitatus is a federal law. So unless the Guard has been federalized, and are acting solely at the discretion of the State, there is no violation of the Posse Comitatus Act.
 
Point taken. Doesn't change the fact that using soldiers to pacify urban unrest (and if six killings in a city the size of Nawlins counts as "unrest," then Nagin needs an updated dictionary) is a Very Bad Idea.
 
Why don't they just install those new listening sensors that detect gunshots, can tell caliber, handgun or rifle-blued or stainless, location to 75ft while calculating wind direction.
Who needs the NG?
Up here in liberalapolis MN we are purchasing this equipment at $375,000 with a yearly cost of $400,000
Thats just for the north side.
Last weekend we had three homocides in an eighteen block radius.
 
Coinneach said:
Doesn't change the fact that using soldiers to pacify urban unrest is a Very Bad Idea.
Click to expand...
I agree fully. Troops trained for war will not a good police force make. But then, maybe they got their police triaining in Iraq? That'd be an interesting sight....
 
Seeing footage of the Guard mobilizing there tonight I wasn't at all surprised to see most of the soldiers, even the group wearing MP identification, carrying M-16s in addition to their sidearms. I did see one pump shotgun, which would seem to be better for the city, but it was mostly rifles. I can't fault the Guard members for wanting the best protection possible, if I had to spend much time in New Orleans I'd want a rifle too, but how practical is it to engage criminals in an American city with a battle rifle?

One of my real fears with this situation is that a Guard member doing what they're trained to do will be involved in the wounding or killing of a civilian not involved in the firefight. At that point, the liberal media will no doubt put the individual soldier and the military establishment as a whole on trial. Never mind that if the Guard had never been mobilized the media would have called for it to stop the violence in the city. Maybe I'm not giving the media enough credit here, but I'm interested to see what anybody else thinks.
 
It would appear that "Chocolate Ray" has found a great way to get free police services from the State. Any other possibilities would involve admitting that despite his recent re election, he, and his entire administration are just plain incompetent
New Orleans: The city that just keeps on taking, and taking, and taking.....
 
308, I think you are right on the money. Regardless of what happens, the media is going to adopt the contrary position. It's the "Devil's Advocate" (canonization process, not the movie) school of journalism. It's all you have available when your coverage is devoid of any substance. Today's media is about entertainment not information.

If the worst does happen, let's see how fast Nagin washes his hands of any responsibility, and the media's response. You know if the feds sent in the military and the worst happened, they would sure blame GWB.

Having said that I hope the situation is uneventful, for the sake of the Guardsmen (Guardspersons???) and innocent civilians.
 
Very perceptive, 308!

Precisely...couldnt have said it better! This is a hot issue for me, as I live in Louisiana and the whole thing just hit too close to home. I live in the northern part of the state, so I personally was unaffected. However, as you mentioned, in the wake of Katrina the govt violated the 2nd amendment rights of law-abiding citizens by confiscating their guns, in the interest of "public safety"..which did absolutely zilch towards making the public safe. In fact, just the opposite, it created the perfect environment for violent crime to thrive. It only served to leave the citizenry at the mercy of armed thugs, both in and out of uniform (perhaps the most distressing aspect of the whole thing (after the confiscation) was the number of LEOs that actually participated in the widespread looting, or the ones who simply abandoned their posts). All in all, I think the entire country was stunned and alarmed at how quickly the system broke down. The ultimate lesson we are left with is that when law and order are nowhere to be found, you're on your own, and the "authorities" who show up at your door arent necessarily there to help.
 
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From what I have read the Guard Members being sent are military police. One of the units is the 239th Military Police Company. Probably are some LEOs mixed in with the company. Most of these guys are regular joes, heck they might even teach the NOPD a thing or two about protecting and serving the public.
 
I think troops should patrol in all our major cities. Isn't the party line spin something like "We can't be free if we're not safe"?
 
'Twill probaby take only the most hardened, blatant and stupid ner-do-well, evil-doer to actually commit a crime in the presence of armed troops. So in that sense, perhaps this will be a good thing, allowing N.O.'s finest to patrol and put their efforts elsewhere.

On the other hand, should any local ner-do-well, evil-doers take umbrage at the presence of armed troops and decide to ambush said troops through the use of well aimed sniping or (heaven forbid) I.E.D. type devices, then we've got a very serious problem here on home turf. In that case I foresee martial law, firearm (and other items) confiscation, curfews, etc. becoming yet another precedent in our War on Terror.

Still and all, it might be a wise maneuver to place N.G. troops there in the event of any future natural disaster in that they'd be better equipped to assist in evacuation and all that entails should that need arise.

I would hate to see another Kent State type incident occur or injury to a good man serving due to poor politics.

Something about Pandora's Box being opened, comes to mind.
 
"The Truth will set you free"

I find it interesting that the newly-re-elected joke of a mayor can't control crime in his city after he disarmed all the law-abiding citizens, and so has to plead & whine for the state to send him the national guard.
Click to expand...
In other words, Nagin has publically admitted that
1.) His gun confiscation is a failure - did not "stop violence and crime,"
2.) He is impotent and incompetent as a Mayor,
3.) His police chief and police department are unable to do their jobs, and
4.) It is clearly time for Nagin and his police chief to resign for the good of New Orleans.

At long last, the truth comes out.:D No wonder he was on TV throwing a tantrum the other night.
 
Not trying to sound like part of the tin-foil hat crowd, but is it possible that New Orleans is a teat project fo future action elsewhere in the country?
 
"Not trying to sound like part of the tin-foil hat crowd, but is it possible that New Orleans is a teat project fo future action elsewhere in the country?"

Not sure I fully understand the question, but we certainly cannot let the New Orleans mayor and police chief get away with this. As we've seen recently, other cities such as San Francisco would be holding their breath waiting for some excuse to do the same thing. It must be made clear to the entire nation that door-to-door police searches and seizures are *illegal*.

Tim
 
We have to take into account most the city was destroyed and left in rubble. The gangs got more violent after we started eradicating them during Katrina which doesn't help but the problems would exist in any city that went through the mess that New Orleans did. Generally people are less violent when 80% of their city hadn't been destroyed leaving them with nothing, dead relatives and a pile of rubble in the street.
 
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