New member`s 1st post-Civil war revolvers

D

DARTH 44

New member
Having spent countless hours enjoying all this excellent gun-info I decided to join TFL. HI ALL!!
Remember ''Outlaw Josey Wales''?After watching that great movie I asked myself a question ''If I were living in the years of Civil War,and like Josey I could have four handguns to protect myself,what guns would they be and how carried?''
Conditions:The guns must be revos,american made(no Lefaucheux,please)and available prior or during the Civil War(up to 1865) Enter my choices:
1. A six-inch 44cal. STARR M1858 in a strongside thigh holster.
WHY? this would be my ''quick response'' gun as its DA lockwork and relatively short barrel could ba an aid for fast first shot.
2. An eight-inch 44cal. REMINGTON M1858 in a crossdraw holster.
WHY? I like the Remingtons for their ability to quick change cylinders(kind of a 19th century speedloader)and for their strong frame & looks.
3. A 7,5'' 44cal. COLT 3rd DRAGOON in a shoulder holster.
WHY? 3rd DRAGOON`s stout 50-grain powderloads and additional sights could help if I needed more stopping power or if
I had to fire a longer,more precise shot.
4. A S&W Model 2 in 32 Long rimfire as a hideout/backup/boot gun

I emailed John Taffin asking for his opinion.Here`s what he answered "I rarely ever play the what if game myself but your choices are fine''

Soo,what do you guys think? Pros?Cons? What would your 4-sixgun battery look like? Sorry for being a little longwinded but there are so many questions,just waiting to be asked:)
Thanks

P.S. I hope you`ll forgive me possible mistakes in my English.
 
Given the choice of 4 revolvers of the same make (commonality of parts), make mine LeMat. Something about having a 16 or 18 bore barrel to support the 9 40 caliber shots appeal to me. With four guns, that works out to 36 40 caliber shots and 4 whopping charges of buckshot. However, I'd hate to carry that many guns and there'd better be a horse to help out.
 
4V50 Gary got it. LeMat, no question. Carried hammer down on an empty chamber, four LeMats would give you 36 shots (does the LeMat have the pins between the nipples for resting the hammer, thus allowing loading of all cylinders??).
 
Since your going firepower route why not have four Walch (spelling?) revolvers, I belive they had 12 shot cylinders that would give you 48 shots at your disposal. In any event I think I would have picked four 1860's for my carry guns. One I would have chopped off in front of the barrel wedge for concealed/backup use. The rest would have been left unaltered except for a taller front sight and a more pronounced notch in the hammer.
 
Thanks for your reply guys.
I did not mention a horse,because I considered having one as obvious;) Now,Le Mat you say.Hmm..I`ve looked at them when doing my choices,but I`ve read somewhere that LeMat`s lockwork was complicated and prone to breakage(correct me if it`s BS) No doubt,having four identical guns is ''logistic-friendly'',but then you don`t have a concealable piece.As far as I remember Eastwood/J.Wales was carrying 3 types: Two COLT DRAGOONs, one COLT 1849 and one COLT1860/Richards conversion(He couldn`t have it in 1865 btw)
Back to LeMat,what is the correct caliber of it? I`ve heard .40,.41 and 44 (I believe 44 is closest to the truth)
Was it possible to fire slugs from the 65 caliber barrel?

Regards
 
IIRC, correct caliber is .44.

Slugs could be shot out of the smooth bore barrel. Just get a mould of the right size, and you're good to go.

The LeMat was a favorite of J.E.B. Stuart, I believe. Don't know if he experienced any breakage problems.
 
Forgot to add...

AJ,I`ve considered the option of having a chopped barrel for one of the Colts too,but a backup gun is usually carried close to the body.Being a firm believer in Murphy`s Law I`m sure that sweat,body salts,perspiration would render a cap`n`ball backup unshootable,exactly in the moment I`d need it
:eek: Hence I chose a rimfire.
 
AJ ,Walch revolvers? Never heard of them.Are they cap`n`ball?That 12-shot cylinder makes me think they may be pinfire Lefaucheux system.Actually there were even 30(thirty)shot pinfire revolvers(butt ugly too)some of them even sported a folding bayonet(Tactical/Assault revolver):cool:
TaxPhd,65-caliber slug in center of mass.Now THAT`S stopping power!! A ''Howdah'' revolver? :D
 
As I recall the Walch revolver was a 12 shot cap and ball 36 caliber. I've heard that they found favor with a few types in their period, but were known to be somewhat ungainly in both appearance and handling qualities. As far as the perspiration with the cap and ball revolvers there was a simple fix. The gas tight seal of the ball in the chamber was a pretty good insurance against moisture content, but adding some grease to it to prevent chain fires would further eliminate this problem. The capped nipples were treated in a similar fashion with either varnish or melted beeswax effectively waterproofing them. It was said that a revolver treated in this fashion could be dropped into a barrel of water, retreived and than fired empty. I would imagine that gunfighters such as Hickock probably follwed similar practices for reloading their cap and ball revolvers.
 
I must admit I didn`t know that method of waterproofing caps,but still,if metallic cartridges were already available why not
to use them?(going with progress:cool: )
AJ could you post a pic of the Walch revolver?
I checked my gun-library but was unable to find it.
Nevertheless,my search was not vain,because I`ve found a very interesting pre-Civil War sixgun.It is MOOR Model 1860.There was a brief description stating that the Moor was available in 30 ,32 and 44 rimfire calibers.What`s so interesting about it?Well,externally the Moor looks almost the same as a 1851 Navy Colt,except the barrel is octagon not round,and there`s no rammer assembly under the barrel.
That space is occupied by very long(almost to the muzzle) cylinder axis/pin ended with a knurled head.
Now the most interesting part.You grab the knurled head,pull it a little forward,and..Presto!! The whole cylinder-barrel-pin unit swings to the left of the frame for reloading just like in modern revos.The star extractors didn`t exist at that time,so I think the Moor had ''gravity'' ejector(muzzle skyward & shake;) when clean,and empties plucked out with the shooter`s fingers when fouled.
Unfortunately,the book says nothing about ruggedness or reliability of the Moor revolver.(Any feedback appreciated),but IF it was any good I`d go with them. Just look,the only 44 rimfire existing in 1860 was the 44Henry Flat,so the Moor would be excellent companion to a Henry rifle.
Did some math.
I load a Henry in Sunday,and can shoot it for the rest of the week.
That means,with a Moor I`ll run out of ammo on Wednesday morning.
:D :D :D

Regards
 
Actually there would have been some very good reasons for sticking with cap and ball revolvers over cartridge ones, the same goes for other firearms as well. Cartridges were still in there infancy, as were designs for early cartridge guns. Cartridge guns generally were not as powerful as equivelent caliber cap and ball revolvers. The 32 long rimfire you're talking about used only 13 grains of FFFg powder, equivelent guns such as the 1849 still used 15 grains of whatever powder you elected to use. The Henry cartridge only carried 28 grains in a day when the regulation load for the 58 caliber rifled musket was 60 grains. The henry cartridge was used widely in both rifles and early pistols so you would still have been better off using an 1860 with say 30-35 grains of powder behind the ball when talking about the power department. In addition, it was far easier and cheaper to feed a cap and ball revolver with loose powder, balls, and caps than it was to shoot a cartridge gun where a source of cartridges was often far away and expensive to boot. Even the early conversion revolvers often allowed the guns to be quickly converted back to cap and ball when cartridges were unavailable. Some noted gunfighters, Hickcock included, favored the percussion revolvers to the cartridge counterparts (though Hickock also carried a #2 S&W army in 32 rimfire as a backup) probably because they had used them for most of their careers and trusted them more so than they did the newer untested cartridge guns. Given the large number of percussion revolvers used before and during the civil war and the fact that many of these guns were carried away by veterans after the conflict it is a fact that by far the most common revolver in the west up until the 1880's was percussion.
 
C`mon 4V50 Gary, The Lincoln derringer is(as you stated )a derringer,not a revolver.I like it too ,but it`s a 41,thus I`d have to use two diameter ball/moulds to feed my guns.If you look at my original post you`ll see i`d use .454'' balls for all of my cap`n`ball sixguns,and 32 Long rimfire to feed my backup.
AJ,You`re absolutely right,the early metallic cartridges were wimpy compared to their C&B equivalents,but the easiness of use of metallic cartridge,and the fact that A.Lincoln had shot a Spencer rifle himself made one Civil War battle won,(forgot the location,sorry) Let`s take a look at the 1866 Prusso-Austrian war.German infantry had decimated Austrian troops only because the Germans used 15,43mm Dreyse rifles,which could be loaded prone position,whereas the Austrians were equipped with muzzleloaders,and they had to get on their feet to reload.AFAIK there was less powder in the Dreyse cartridge,than in the Austrian MZZLoaders,so it`s not always muzzle energy.In that particular case the user-friendliness turned out to be more essential than raw power.
Of course,I`m not a follower of the ''Wound ,but don`t kill the enemy''theory:barf: Too many good soldiers lost their lives because of that.Let`s get back to the subject.
LeMat revolver-Gun Digest 1995
-Cavalry model(lanyard ring.spur trigger guard)
-Army model(round trigger guard,pin type barrel release)
-Naval-style(thumb selector on hammer)
Which one is the best and most common?
Yeah,I`ve been bitten by that ''65 caliber slug'' bug:D And why not!?
Good shooting
 
My father has the cavalry model LeMatt, which I probably have shot more than him. I never shot the shotgun barrel with a slug, but I've put a few loads of buckshot through it. Frankly I have to admit that it is an impressive weapon when you consider the 9 chambers in the revolver and the shotgun barrel at your command. Loading it, I thought, was somewhat awkward because of the European style loading lever. Accuracy wise it was more than acceptable, but the thick post front sight coupled with a small sighting notch made any real fine aiming a diffculty, but than again I very much doubt this pistol was intended for use on any but close quarter targets. It would have been nice if they would have made this pistol double action like the Adams and Star revolvers, I bet it would have had more popularity in such an instance, but nevertheless it is still quite a pistol.
 
Lemat would be cool, but in the time frame set, a very, very rare weapon. I assume the place these potential pistols would be used would be the plains/mountain west? If so, good choices would be the 3rd Model Dragoon and Colt pocket. The Remingtons a good revolver, but fouls easy, and when fouled the cylinder pin sometimes has to be tapped out. The 3rd model Dragoon, has the advantage of the open top/Arbor pin setup. Also, it is (was) capable of shots out to 150 yds or so..very useful as one of the common tactics in open country was to keep potential trouble out past 100 or so yards. In many cases, any closer, and it was too late. The disadvantage to the Dragoon is that it eats too much powder, and is heavy (that's why the Navies were so popular). The pocket Colt, simply because it could be hidden, and even in the 1860's there were times when a revolver slung off the belt...was considered too much. Plus, up close, good for potting stew meat. Although, up close a few did use the Dragoons for buffalo running...apparently lot's of fun and you got fed too...cool.
 
oh yes, forgot. About weather proofing as percussion revolver. Front of the cylinder a mix of tallow and wax. Seals it and doesn't run out in hot weather (if it's hot enough some tallows, greases tend to flow out, then is loose seated balls, Bang! chainfire) Seat the caps, then on the sides of the cones/cone 'walls' seal with wax. Don't get any on the tops of the caps though...causes misfires.
And in general, the military flap holsters did a pretty good job of keeping the gun operable. Although a twist draw is a problem, especially with a heavy gun like a Dragoon. And in general, during this period little need to carry a pocket gun directly on the body, usually a waistcoat, coat etc was worn. That crowd generally wore more clothing than we do today...excluding of course, those times when the army campaigned in underwear.
But then in those circumstances, they didn't care if their weapon..or anything else was visable.
And as noted...at the time cartridges could be very hard to get..one pair of argonauts had all of 18 cartridges for a needle gun..so when confronted by the Cheyenne for trespassing etc, they had to try as much as to point their rifle and not shoot it. The Native Nations were generally even worse off for metallic cartridges, as such they seemed to have invented reloading. As stated, that's one reason the percussions stayed about so long. Best tool for the time and place.
 
Very interesting replies,thanks folks!
Yes,I too have read Remingtons were fouling faster than the open-topped Colts,but if a Remington shooter would remove empty cylinder(what requires the cylinder pin to be moved forward)from the frame,and replace it with another freshly loaded cylinder,I think the effect of fouling could be significantly diminished.Of course,this would be possible only if the shooter had spare cylinders.
I wonder after how many shoots would a Remington ''freeze''Any thoughts?(oh yes,all shots from one cylinder)
What`s the most fouling-proof C&B revolver in your opinion?
What`s the ergonomics of LeMat,I mean,can it be cocked easily w/o hand shifting?
And now to muddle muddy water more,a quote from CLASSIC ARMS magazine
''...the Remington New Model Army purchased in large numbers during the war nad co-issued with the Colt M1860 as the standard firearm for cavalry was not well regarded by frontier troops owing to misfires and breakages.''
D`you know what kind of breakages it was?
 
About fouling, it seemed that any Colt or colt copy (ie Manhattans etc) did best avoiding the problem. Due to the open top and large arbors-which could hold a good amount of grease.
Using 2f,3f my Remington will start to bind up in about 4 cylinders. That can be stopped by wiping the front face of the cylinder...if the pin isn't stuck. As for the problems they seemed to have had-I recall reading a few reports of the cylinder hand working loose, and the rammers breaking. Also the Remington design is very vulnerable to cap jams. That said, politics might also have been a factor-during the civil war, it wasn't uncommon for poor/condemned weapons to be issued to state militias/residual US army troops in the west. For example the Colorado militia was issued a batch of Whitney's where the triggers would bend when used.
And some Spencers in the 1860's were so worn as to be even more problematic with the 'fool killer' magazine problems.
Given the usual 'losses' of supplies off of military posts in the period...that might account partially for the stories about the Remingtons.
At times, at least in pistol manufacture, quality manufacturers like Remington/Whitney did have trouble. Also, somewhat weird, never recall seeing a Savage revolver in a frontier photo-what happened to these? A weird operation system-but some were found of it (ie James Wilson)...and anyway given the habit of taking the war guns west-it would seem more would be in evidence. Especially since, for many the costs of a pistol vs resources were often quite imbalanced. One reason why so many 19th century Sat. night specials, are still around...many were made, but for many it was the best they could get.
 
Last time I shot my '51, I ran 7 cylinders full without the gun binding up. Crisco over the balls seemed to work fine in keeping the fouling soft and the gun shooting.

Have had a number of cap jams with this gun, though. Cap debris will sometimes get down through the hammer slot and lock the gun up tight. Have been told that a heavier main spring (hammer spring?) will help to prevent this from happening.
 
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