New look at the goto HD gun?

regal

New member
For years it was the shotgun. A century ago they were sbs, now folks recommend the 870 or mossburg. Really they are a bit too long for home defense, not pin point accurate, and a bit it unweildy. Too expensive to train with. Still a good choice just not for me.

Also the lever action 30-30 carbine is a good choice, better accuracy, easier to handle. Not a bad choice. But ammo is way too expensive, and there are other issues.

A lot of us switched to the large frame handgun, you have your 9mm Glock/M&P and your .45 avotees. You can mount lights to them which is a big advancement for HD, even a little Docter reflex sight. Been my choice for years, very handy always close-by

But I am getting older, arthritis/shakey hands. In a panic I question my confidence for shot placement with a handgun now days.


Now keep end mind that I think your goto HD gun should be a gun that you practice with alot, so cost ammo is a big factor. Even best to practice with your SD ammo, as you never know unforeseen variables. I also think a red dot type optic is a must, one thing all internet caliber arguments agree on is shot placement. I also feel that the electronic earmuffs should be stored with your HD gun, any caliber above a makarov is going to damage your hearing in doors without mufs.


So getting to the point, three alternatives that I think deserve attention:

1. The "pencil" barrel 14.5" mid gas AR with permanent comp. Quick turning radius. A lightweight Tijjicon RMR and streamlight snap right on. Ergonomics unbeatable, true accuracy in pointshoot defense. Ballistics are great inside 75 yards even with cheap XM193. No stamp hassel. But is the barrel too long?

2. The 11.5 "cammando" type based AR, probably modernized with a DD forged pencil barrel, lightweight troy 11" tube. Very light weight, incredible fast target aquisition. A bit expensive with the $200 stamp. Flash light and a red dot are right at home on the rifle. Ballistics get a little iffy, I think simply because there isn't much data. I hate the idea of depending on those $1 per round loads, can't afford to train with them. That said XM193 should be fine under 25m.

3. The Draco SBR. Some will shake their heads, but this is a mil spec gun actually used by the romanians it isn't an americanized parts build, reliability is amazing. It only weighs 5.5lbs before adding the stock, not much heavier than an MP5. Ballistics with the 8M3 "Sapsan"bullet should very good even from the short barrel. Should you ever end up in a very ugly situation this has superior barrier penetration to the AR's. The big problem is mounting a small rd optic and flashlight and ergonomics in general.


Note I didn't inclde the AAC blackout, too new, and 1000 rounds of practice would cost more than the above guns alone.


Of the three which would you chose and why?
 
You're ignoring the upfront costs of your suggested home defense firearms. That's a big factor for many.

Either of the AR's, outfitted as you outlined, not to mention the tax stamp for the Colt Commando, are over $1400.

Why would you need optics for a home defense rifle anyway?

The Draco is probably upwards of $900 including the stamp.

A Mossberg 500 on the other hand can be had in the low $300 range, doesn't weigh much more than the AR's, and can accept a collapsable stock and a light.

Practice ammo for the Mossberg will probably be less than for the AR's since one will be shooting far fewer 12 gauge shells per session typically.

The Mossberg can be loaded, and left that way for years without issues, and will be available instantly.

Plus, as is commonly known, just racking the shotty will scare off any two-legged threats. :D
 
I'm hoping the Keltec KSG doesn't have any problems and turns out to be reasonably priced. A bullpup shotgun that holds 15 rounds seems to me about as good as it gets for a home defense weapon. Wonder when that's going to be available?
 
not pin point accurate, and a bit it unweildy. Too expensive to train with.

I think most folks are more likely to score a vitals hit with a shotgun than the other firearms you mention.

Target loads may not kick like premium HD loads, but are close enough for cheap practice rounds IMO.
 
Option #2 is more like $100 for a quality AR with pinned muzzel attachement (no stamp needed) and a decent optic. Even that the difference in price shouldn't be a factor if you can afford.



I can't believe no one agrees that a red dot is a huge technological advancement in target aquisition speed and accuracy, my folding stock mossburg 590 just seems huge and unweildy compared to a 14.5 AR.
As far as a handgun, I agree the best choice if you are in good health and train regularly. The last time I went to the doctor he asked me to hold my hand out horizantal, shakey is all I have to say. Its what happens when you get older.

I think as you get older and have the money an AR makes some since over a shotgun?
 
cool hand luke 22:36 said:
Why would you need optics for a home defense rifle anyway?

Because they are faster than iron sights and work better under a wider range of lighting conditions. And the very areas where they show the most improvement over irons (unconventional shooting positions, shooter moving, target moving, both moving, low-light) are also fairly common to self-defense shooting scenarios.

Stressfire said:
Isn't that sold as a pistol? Why would you need a stamp?

SBR = Short-Barrelled Rifle and the OP mentioned adding a stock. So I don't believe he was referring to the pistol version.

I think regal made a good point that individual circumstances dictate what tool is going to work best for a person; but realistically, all of the tools mentioned are well-suited to the job. The person using the tool is a much bigger part of the equation.
 
Option #2 is more like $100 for a quality AR with pinned muzzel attachement (no stamp needed) and a decent optic. Even that the difference in price shouldn't be a factor if you can afford.

I'll assume you meant $1000.

Could you direct me to the vendor that sells this $1000 Colt Commando with the Trijicon optic, troy industries rail, and streamlight.

Cheapest AR with an 11" thin barrel that I can find online is over $1000.

Have you priced Trijicon products? Cheapest optic they sell is $500.

Have you priced Streamlight products? Cheapest weapons light is $125.

A Troy rail is at least another $400.

And don't forget the mounts for the optic and light.

I was optimistic before. The carbine you outlined would be closer to $2200, even without the need for a tax stamp.
 
If cost is not a factor then the shorter the better (for inside the house) and a compact red dot sight is perfect. Either option #2 or #3. At typical home defense ranges the short barrel ballistics is not detrimental. Even within 100 yds they all have enough velocity to perform. Be sure to use quality ammo suitable for your environment and has good terminal expansion.

If cost is a factor then of course whatever fits your budget.
 
I can't believe no one agrees that a red dot is a huge technological advancement in target aquisition speed and accuracy,

Because, at most HD distances, it is NOT an advantage - nothing is faster than your eyes and a plain bead - you should be looking at your target, NOT the sight - if your gun fits you, it will point naturally where you want it to
 
Because, at most HD distances, it is NOT an advantage - nothing is faster than your eyes and a plain bead - you should be looking at your target, NOT the sight - if your gun fits you, it will point naturally where you want it to

I agree completely. You may regret using the extra half-second or more it takes to get the gun up and sighted in, depending on circumstances. Not to mention remembering how to activate the red dot, laser or whatever other battery-operated sighting system you have. Any decent course on SD will spend a good amount of practice time on point shooting, and for good reason.
 
I have to admit I really like the SERBU

The Serbu takes a $5 tax stamp - that's not so bad.

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And the Alliance Armament Shotgun Pistol & Origin AOW

I like the Origin better because it's a semi-auto.

http://www.alliancearmament.com/originsbs12gaugeshotgun1012barrel-1.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYsQDq9_wvk&feature=related
 

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Because, at most HD distances, it is NOT an advantage - nothing is faster than your eyes and a plain bead - you should be looking at your target, NOT the sight - if your gun fits you, it will point naturally where you want it to

Agreed, for this application. If someone's in my house, it's point and click, for sure. (I have a small house!)
 
You got to be careful with those goofy no-stock sawed offs. Don't try to aim them like a pistol, you'll get a mouth full of handle.

On the other hand, the bad guy might feel bad for you and leave without hurting anything.
 
I'll assume you meant $1000.

Could you direct me to the vendor that sells this $1000 Colt Commando with the Trijicon optic, troy industries rail, and streamlight.

Cheapest AR with an 11" thin barrel that I can find online is over $1000.

Have you priced Trijicon products? Cheapest optic they sell is $500.

Have you priced Streamlight products? Cheapest weapons light is $125.

A Troy rail is at least another $400.

And don't forget the mounts for the optic and light.

I was optimistic before. The carbine you outlined would be closer to $2200, even without the need for a tax stamp


Its not difficult to put together a mil spec 11.5" AR upper add the troy rail and DD pencil barrel. Aim sells this exact config for $600, weighs 3.3 lbs, incredibly useful except for the rapid followup factor which is why I am leaning toward option #3. PA lower $200 and a Docter (the forefather to tijjicon site another $200. But you are right it is expensive both option #2&#3. If you insist on colt that's your proragotive not everyones.


As far as the optic for HD. I think we all are mature enough to agree that shot placement is the most important factor in stopping a threat. The old tactic of using the bead and looking at your target has shown through the years to be well not so good. There is a reason all the CQB armed forces now use optics. Yes with both eyes open. Much faster and more accurate than the old method for most people.
 
The "goto" HD gun has been the venerable shotgun for decades because it works.

Sometimes you need a better wheel, sometimes you just need to stop trying to reinvent what works.

"Pinpoint accuracy" is irrelevant in HD. It's beyond irrelevant. You're not shooting 200 yards, or even 50. You'd be shooting 15,20, maybe 5 feet. "Accuracy", as in the mechanical capability of the gun, has no meaning.

There's no reason that a shotgun has to be long and bulky. Get a short barrel, 16". It's short enough. You're not on a SWAT team doing entries with 6 other guys to maneuver around.

The shotgun has POWER. No handgun or SBR even comes close. We're talking 2,200 to almost 3,000ft/lbs. A REALLY powerful handgun might be 1,000. A 9mm, 40, 45 is LUCKY to make 450. If you have to shoot someone, you want force behind your actions. Handguns are LOUSY HD weapons. We carry them on the street because we look funny with a 12ga strapped to our hips. It's not because they're the best choice for effectiveness.
 
oneounceload said:
Quote:
I can't believe no one agrees that a red dot is a huge technological advancement in target aquisition speed and accuracy,

Because, at most HD distances, it is NOT an advantage - nothing is faster than your eyes and a plain bead - you should be looking at your target, NOT the sight - if your gun fits you, it will point naturally where you want it to

I've run a lot of courses of fire at 15yds or less and red dots consistently dominate those in terms of time (at least with regards to pistols and rifles). I can't speak for every human being in the world naturally; but for me, I think the reasons I am consistently faster with red dots boil down to:

1. The target and the reticle are in the same plane - which as you mentioned above, is ideal. I can concentrate on the target, and not worry about front sight focus with a blurry target.

2. No need for cheek weld. I've had instances running my ACOG (which is also cheek-weld dependent) where my stock was a notch or two further out than I normally run it when I did my shooting. The result (which may not be entirely attributable to the cheek weld) was rounds hitting about 6-7" low at distances under 15yds. Naturally I found that disconcerting since it put me out of the -0 zone and in a real scenario would have meant stray rounds or non-vital zone hits. With a red dot, I don't have to worry about whether my gun fits me and my cheek weld is good. Is the red dot on the target? If yes, pull trigger. If no, put red dot on target. This also allows for a variety of unconventional positions and weakside shooting that is simply not possible with irons and gives me the ability to make better use of cover/concealment.

3. A glowing red dot is usually easier for my eye to find, particularly in low-light, than a black iron post.

I'm interested in hearing what shooting experiences you have had that led you to the opposite conclusion.

spacecoast said:
I agree completely. You may regret using the extra half-second or more it takes to get the gun up and sighted in, depending on circumstances. Not to mention remembering how to activate the red dot, laser or whatever other battery-operated sighting system you have.

OK, we have time to access a long gun in this scenario; but no time to activate an optic? Fair enough, you can buy an Aimpoint and just leave it on. The battery life is around 5 years at medium intensity.

Any decent course on SD will spend a good amount of practice time on point shooting, and for good reason.

OK, we seem to be discussing primarily long guns here. So apparently we have the time to access a long gun. I am having a difficult time imagining a scenario where I have a long gun in my hands and point shooting is both a better option than using the sights and a difficult enough task that I need to train for proficiency in that scenario. Could you elaborate a bit on where you see point shooting being relevant and I'd be especially interested in learning exactly how much faster point shooting a long gun is than using sights?
 
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