New law for LEO?

I think I had a fairly reasonable idea when it comes to LEO and discharging their firearms when a group of them (3 or more) interact with a potentially dangerous suspect. By this I mean only one perp, not two or more. While all LEO at the scene may have the weapons in hand and ready to fire only a selected officer (these guys do develope somewhat of a game plan before going in) is authorized to shoot unless it is painfully obvious that one gun isn't going to do the job...you know, like the perp is so drugged and violent it may take fifty rounds to stop him or there is obviously some back up for the bad guy that may or may be as stupid/desperate as their buddy who just got ventilated or protecting another person.

Sound like a fair way to keep LEO from putting 50 rounds into one frickin' person? Or even a few rounds into to an unlucky soul who happened to be there? LEO are supposed to be professionals with professional skills to use their tools in a manner that keep them and us safe.

No cop bashing allowed, I just want to see some opinion on proceedure changes that would benefit regular folks and LEO alike. You don't have to like LEO, but you have understand that they do take bad guys to jail. It is the judge or the prosecutor that let them out.
 
It is the judge or the prosecutor that let them out

What about the defense lawyer? ok that's OT. :rolleyes:

But in answer to your question I think the rules in place are a good enough for now. Just maybe a law against stoopid people who watch too much Hockywood (A scene comes to mind where a city councilwoman or whatever asked an LEO why he didn't just shoot the shotgun out of the suspects hand.:barf:)
 
I think the answer is a whole lot more and better firearms training and shift in focus from shoot until you run out of bullets and reloads, to take good cover and shout a warning. I know that can't always be done but the example I look at was the semi-local woman sleeping in her car with a pistol on her lap for protection. Instead of taking good cover and shouting a "wake up - police" from safety, they shouted guns at the ready from point blank range and when her head popped up they unloaded thirty or forty some rounds into her car for like four hits. It's things like this or shooting unarmed off duty service men that make them look bad. Not dropping a bad guy waving a shotgun. At the risk of sounding like an old foggy we didn't have 4 officers get the drop on somebody sitting in a car and unload 30-40 rounds for 4 hits. Maybe 4-5 rounds for 3-5 hits. It just looks bad and maybe comes from a shift in focus from marksmanship to magazine capacity.
 
Unfortunately in many situations the incident unfolds in fractions of a second. There is no time for detailed planning and deciding who does what.
Your idea sounds like it came from my former boss who had almost no street time and thought every incident should have a preapproved tactical plan outlined in detail. That's what the book said so the boss thought every incident should go that way. Situation responses are often driven by the subject's actions, not the police.
 
Picking and choosing who will be the one to fire when faced with a deadly threat is expecting a little much - situations can be way too fluid. Besides, some of the guys I rode with, I would MUCH rather be sure I could fire to defend myself (and them) - they just weren't shooters. Other guys, I would love to know they were covering me AS WELL.

Hopefully if the bad guy guys down, whether it is by 2 rounds or 20, we all get to go home at the end of the night. Good & constant training is the key, not having designated shooters when everyone is threatened.
 
''Hopefully we all go home at the end of the night"

I am pretty willing to bet there is at least one poor soul who didn't go home one night because a stray bullet from six cops unloading on some schmuck hit him/her instead. This kind of crap should never happen given the fact that police are supposed to highly trained to be calm under pressure and shoot well. Multiple cops shooting at one idiot is more a gang hit on a snitch. Police are professionals, aren't they? Up hold those supposed standards. Even at the spur of the moment all one officer has to say is, ''I'll shoot if needs be'' and all others stand at the ready. Not a tough proceedure to work into.

If it counts for anything I used to work for a fellow named Leroy who got shot in the butt (he went to the hospital, not home) because of bad police firearms use and I used to attend church with a guy who got over 50 holes in him for being very drunk and hard to control. 5 holes I can understand, but over 50 from 10 officers at the scene. Seriously, ten cops couldn't tackle and subdue one man. That is pathetic and just plain sad he was killed instead of getting dog piled and hog tied. I didn't care for the guy's personality, but he didn't need ventilation. Both of these events happened in Denver, CO. March of '06 a retarded kid gets a 12 gauge road to heaven by an AR cop because he was unable to respond properly to the commands of the LEO. Momma gets one million dollars, though she would rather have her son back. AR cop gets no punishment.

I am sick of the free pass to kill the LEO get these days. Seriously, just how many bad shoots are covered up by being in line with dept. policy that is adhusted to fit every case. Personally, I think part of this is to reduce any possible officer liabilty in case it was suicide by cop. I am wiiling to bet it happens more than police will admit.

New policy and proceedure is needed for all LEO before the public decide it is truly us vs. them because the police will lose. Already there are parts of certain cities where the police do not go unless they are in force. I have a friend who's dad is a Little Rock cop who admits there are neighborhoods there that they stay out of. Just imagine that becoming a problem in all parts of any city. It is a possibility.

My feelings are that we do need police to haul off bad guys, but we do not need some of the tatics are are SOP nor the body count to go with it.
 
As I said - more training.

In the mean time - YOU have someone threaten to kill you, then start to make good on it, and just stand by AND HOPE someone else takes action. As for me - NO THANKS! That second waiting and watching could very well make the difference on whether I/we live or die. AND once I decide that person has to go down, I do not care how many shots it takes.
Does this excuse bad shoots, or inaccurate shooting? Not the least.

Actually, after the FBI shoot-out in Miami, the rules seemed to change; I remember a shoot in NY soon after where 1 bad guy was rightly just plastered with ALOT of shots while sitting in his car - the cops just weren't taken any chances any more.
 
Not at all trying to sound like a cop basher; I haven't been on this forum long enough for anyone to know me or understand how much I value the dedicated, the majority of those on duty. But a few points to consider.

Double standard. In many states, mostly the mini soviet republics (NY, NJ, CT, Mass., Kalif.), a citizen has to go to great lengths if an intruder is in his home. Even if the intruder is w/ a gun. Announce you're armed, retreat into your bedroom, give them a chance to retreat, etc.

Failing to do so can have you end up in jail. Yet, complying could get you killed.

Now flip this around. Woman falls asleep in car, handgun barrel in sight on lap. Dumb on her part? Absolutely. But not worthy of a death sentence. Instead of retreating or announcing intentions, or cordoning area off and waiting until she wakes, it's "how 'bout we startle her awake, then open fire at the first sign of movement?"

Nobody goes to jail, one woman goes to the grave and possibly some innocent bystanders go with her.

It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that people often move suddenly when they're awakened by shouting.

Now I understand officer safety and all that... BUT... two things:

1. The officer's life is equal in importance to the citizen's life who defends himself in his home. It is not, under any circumstances, worth more, or less. So there should not be a double standard. Not saying this double standard is your fault personally, but it definitely exists.

2. When someone takes a line of work where their actions can take someone's life away, but they don't have to worry about the same repercussions as the average citizen, they should expect to be second-guessed. A lot. Hey, it still beats what the citizen faces, which often includes a judge and jury.

This said, I usually come down on the side of the police. 'Usually' doesn't mean 'always'. Gangland style hails-o-bullets are not expected, desirable or even acceptable from people who train constantly with firearms. Thing is, I notice most of this coming from people who did not grow up around firearms. New York, Chicago, LA is where a lot of this stuff happens. No coincidence, in my book.
 
If deadly force is justified, who cares whether it was one bullet or 50 bullets that made the guy dead? Having a "designated shooter" law sounds absurd to me. Another one of those "just shoot the gun out of their hand" or "wing them" type feel good ideas. Not applicable in the real world.

When someone takes a line of work where their actions can take someone's life away, but they don't have to worry about the same repercussions as the average citizen, they should expect to be second-guessed.

In general, it is easier for a non-LEO to get away with a justified shooting than an LEO. Even criminals agree. During interviews with BGs in prison, when asked whether they feared an armed civilian or a LEO most, the majority said they feared the civilian because they just start shooting while the LEO has rules.
 
Right before the perp rushes them - wielding a gun/pipewrench/hairbrush in hand - one of the cops can yell, "Timeout!"

Then the cops huddle and talk about their game plan. One guy puts a bunch of straws in his fist and they all pick. The one who loses gets to shoot the perp and spend the next two weeks on paid administrative leave.

...Unless one of them is a rookie. Then the rookie shoots and the veterans can head back over to the ski lodge for some cigars and brandy.

But if there's two rookies, they'll have to wrestle for it... Greco-Roman style.

Or.... the cops can make a split second decision that'll very likely decide life and death for his/her self, bystanders, and nearby cops.
 
mr a-sanity, your post was just immature considering the nature of the question.

Once again the issue of "your idea is just stupid" rears it's ugly head. The concept of making police more accountable for their actions rubs some people raw. This isn't about stripping cops of their ability to use lethal force as justified. It is about filling the minimum of body bags with innocent bystanders. Shield 20 said more training is needed. Needed how? How much more training? I thought police academies were supposed to be at the top of the game. I thought police had to recertify from time to time.

This is about keeping a group of cops from all opening fire at the same time on the street. Their snipers don't all shoot at once if there is only one target.
Citizens shoot first because they don't have bullet proof vests and most likely do not have the training to stay calm under pressure that police are supposed to have. They tend to panic. Police are supposed to be able to put aside and think rationally.

Cops want to get home to their families. I get that. What I don't get is that being an excuse for lack of concern for those they claim they are here to protect. Any cop who shoots the wrong person should face prosecution, same as us normal folks, not just a lost job.

Since the Supreme Court ruled that police have no duty to protect then by all means do not protect, but do not do any damage. I am of the opinion that if most people carried guns we wouldn't need police on the street in the numbers they are in now. If the police had public support likey the used to they would get back up from citizens who are armed. Departments could increase their budgets on detective divisions and maybe more detective type crimes would be solved.

Maybe I just expect too much from the people who are supposed to be the finest in civil service. Second only to firefighters. I got nothing but love for the kind of bravery that runs into the fire knowing full well there may be no going home in the name of protecting the public.
 
This is about keeping a group of cops from all opening fire at the same time on the street.

This sounds to me to be more of a solution looking for a problem. The incidents of suspects being shot multiple times by multiple LEOs are few and far between. In the past 40 years, I can only think of two incidents where this occured locally. In both cases, it was an armed suspect vs the SWAT team. One was a hostage situation and the other was a suspect that had just killed two deputies.

Given the number of arrests made at gun point, it just doesn't seem to be a problem.
 
SWAT isn't regular street cops. I am referring only to regular cops who respond to a call. I also am talking about more than one cop opening fire on one (only one) frickin' person. In the real world I may go to prison for excessive force for shooting to slide lock. If cop does it he goes on paid leave while there is an "investigation". If a group of them do it, same thing.

I am sorry that I think only one person should be shooting another bothers some people, but that is my line in the sand. Multiple perps throws those rules out the window. As I stated before, all it takes is for one officer to announce to the other officers he will shoot and the others stand at the ready with arms drawn. That can be done in the car enroute. Some of you guys make it sound impossible. If police can't even communicate with each other well, how are they gonna expect to be an efficient team. Might be time for some training.

Those of us who CCW have been taught to shoot to stop the threat. This needs to be police policy as well. I hate seeing taxes go to prisons, but most crimes are not punished with death for a reason. (As a side note, those who commit violent crimes against people should never see the light of day after capture, but that is not up the police, I got a real bone to pick with the courts and lawmakers too.)
 
After tonight, I have lost a great deal of respect for LEO's. One of my best friends from childhood is a 'NYC police officer'... I will be a 'NYS peace officer' in a few months.....


....continued in another post....
 
Last edited:
If you put six LEOs around a car in a high-risk situation (i.e. felony suspect, sleeping woman with gun in her lap, etc.) and something happens where one officer fires his weapon things become very fuzzy.

In some cases, only the one officer fires because no one else sees the danger or is in a position to shoot. In other cases, one officer "breaks protocol" by firing his weapon. The other officers, thinking "he must have a reason" also discharge their weapons. I seem to recall a video that illustrated it where one of two LEOs on a car stop spotted a gun in the console. The driver-side officer fired first. The passenger side officer had just arrived behind the door when the first shot was fired. He too fired, twice. Then, you see an officer near the trunk draw and fire twice through the rear window. Almost immediately two more officers (a backup unit?) appear on camera, firing three to five shots each through the rear window. Result? Suspect shot in the hand by the first officer, all others missed.

Back in the 70's, our training regime said that you didn't fire your weapon unless you knew a threat existed. Shooting because your partner fired was not acceptable if you did not see the weapon or the threat posed to someone.

Certainly if you're arresting someone with 3 other officers and the suspect makes a "furtive movement towards his waistband" and/or "pulls an obect from his pocket or waistband" that appears to be a weapon, I would expect 8-12 rounds fired, maybe more.

As to training...
This kind of crap should never happen given the fact that police are supposed to highly trained to be calm under pressure and shoot well.

You should contact some of the LEOs here or at your local agencies and inquire about how many hours of formal training they get and how difficult the course of fire is. You'll be surprised at how little firearms training goes on in some agencies. The emphasis is on the legal aspects, investigation and report writing more than shooting or hand-to-hand techniques.

Department budgets don't include the large investment in sending officers to a Gunsite or Thunder Ranch type training program. And no matter how many range sessions you have with paper targets, when someone is trying to kill you or your partner, fear is a big factor.

Those of us who CCW have been taught to shoot to stop the threat. This needs to be police policy as well.

Which is exactly why you have a well-perforated suspect when several officers are involved. They all shoot until the threat ceases.

In some of the shooting cases, I'm more concerned with what appears to be a lack of common sense in some LEO circles. For instance, a local PD started a practice of serving felony warrants, endorsed for night service, between 4:30am and 6am. The "logic" was that suspects would be sleeping and the element of surprise was on their side.

Unfortunately, if you hit the wrong house a homeowner will react in lawful self defense because upon waking all s/he will be hearing is loud shouting and/or doors being kicked in. But investigations don't ever seem to take into account that people don't instantly recognize multiple, uncoordinated shouts of "police", don't instantly understand the words "warrant service" or recognize the word "police" partially covered up on the black-masked man holdling an MP-5. Which is exactly what happened and they have since ceased these kinds of raids.

Likewise, the lack of common sense displayed with the woman sleeping with a gun in her lap in the back of her car. I'd have backed off and lit the car up with spotlights and turned on the red/blue overheads. If she slept through a couple of siren blasts and PA instructions, rapping a baton on the back corner of the car to wake her would have been next. And I would expect a somewhat startled and confused reaction for the first 30 seconds or so.
 
Unfortunately, if you hit the wrong house a homeowner will react in lawful self defense because upon waking all s/he will be hearing is loud shouting and/or doors being kicked in. But investigations don't ever seem to take into account that people don't instantly recognize multiple, uncoordinated shouts of "police", don't instantly understand the words "warrant service" or recognize the word "police" partially covered up on the black-masked man holdling an MP-5.

Very true. I read about many instances where this kind of thing happened. Tragic but 100% avoidable. The homeowner startled out of sleep with all that commotion is going to think Home Invasion Robbery, if he thinks at all.

Ski masks are for terrorists anyway.
 
As I said before, this proposal of mine is just my idea of how police policy needs to change. In truth I only expect LEO screwups, bad shoots and rights violations to get so bad that the public as a whole see LEO as the enemy. After that the LEO biz is not where you wanna be if you expect to live a long healthy life. I am not trying to hijick my thread but...

I do not consider night raids to be reasonable search and seizure. They in direct violation of the Fourth Amendment. One of the biggest reasons is that citizens do not feel too secure when their doors get rammed in. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses...." As a matter of fact, LEO kicking in your door at any time violates the 4th. I know cops will scream about officer safety and destruction of evidence, but too bad. Shut off the power and water and wait it out. Most criminals are not prepared for a long stand off. They are going to get hungry enough to surrender or die. Collect evidence and charge 'em with crimes that stick...lots and lots criminals with felonies have guns. There is plenty of evidence that won't flush when there is no way to flush. That alone will send 'em up for a while.

Back to the subject. If multiple cops opening fire is mostly reactionary then my idea gains even more merit in my mind. As for cops not getting professional training, then why bother to training them at all. Most states require that police meet a minimum standard of training and some even have a central police boot camp that any cop who works in that state most attend. Up the standards.

Said part is that the local police (northwest AR) have begun to lower their standards because they are short on manpower, especially bi-lingual manpower. LEO around here weren't too popular around to start with, I imagine it will get lots worse in the near future. There have been bad shoots and I expect the number to rise.
 
Back
Top