New Handloader Problem

B

bigcountryeb

Inactive
I am a relatively new to handloading, having loaded about 3000 rounds total, and I've had some good success with my rifle rounds. However, I'm struggling with pistol. I am loading 9mm with 124 gr projectiles. I have used Berry's plated 124 gr RN and currently am loading RMR 124 gr FMJ. The RMR bullets have the cartridge brass type of jacket.

The reason for the switch from Berry's to RMR was I was getting terrible accuracy out of my carbine with the Berry's. They did fine out of my pistols at the shorter distances, but out of the carbine they were shooting about 12 moa at 100 yards.

Now that I have switched to the RMR FMJs I am getting excessive recoil and possibly pressures at even starting loads. I am loading them with CFE Pistol and Longshot. Recoil seem to be worse with CFE Pistol than Longshot but I have the same problem with both powders. Even loading a starting load from the Lee Manual, I am getting terrible recoil and may have even damaged the sear spring on my Ruger LC9s (I have sent it in to have them look at it). The cartridges themselves and primers look fine, but this recoil is well in excess of any factory ammo I have shot including Winchester NATO rounds.

I am using all Lee equipment. I have the Lee turret press and 4 die 9 mm set. I am using the lee scale and measuring about every 10th round (however I have found the lee auto-drum to be extremely consistent with these powders). I have tried both CCI and Winchester standard (not magnum) primers and had the same problem with each. I am putting a crimp on using the Lee Factory Crimp die, but after the first batch produced so much recoil I backed this off to near no-crimp. I have been lengthening out my COAL as long as my magazines will handle since this problem developed.

I have been using Remington and Magtech brass lately, because that is what I have a lot of.

Any ideas of what is going on would be appreciated.
 
This is where a Chronograph can be your friend. It would give you the chance to see what your load is actually doing. With a carbine you would get at least another 100 fps vs a pistol. With the bullets your using you could easily run about 1,000 to 1,100 fps and be on the safe side.

I use a lot of CFE Pistol and have chronographed some 124gr Xtreme plated with good accuracy. I'll post my chosen load that was shot from a Glock 19. Use this data at your own discretion but hopefully it will get you on the right track.

Disclaimer: use at your own free will

Xtreme 124 RN - CFE Pistol 5.4gr

String:|4
Date:|4/13/2015
Time:|1:57:01 PM
Grains:|124

Hi Vel:|1124
Low Vel:|1099
Ave Vel:|1108

Ext Spread:|25
Std Dev:|9

Velocity|Power Factor|Ft/Lbs
1124| 139.376| 347.821
1107| 137.268| 337.379
1107| 137.268| 337.379
1103| 136.772| 334.946
1099| 136.276| 332.521
 
Welcome to the wonderful, oft confusing and frustrating world of reloading. First, I'd suggest another manual, not much wrong with the Lee manual, but I find the reloading data lacking. Hornady publishes an excellent reloading manual. Besides you cannot have too many reloading manuals.

Felt recoil can be confusing and do not always indicate high pressures (when I was shooting my .44 Magnums 4-5 times a month I could tell the difference in recoil, from a slow powder to a fast powder, but that had no correlation to pressures). What may be painful to one may be soft to another shooter. My pistol reloads are rarely near max. so I just measure cases and watch ejection patterns (hot loads will eject farther and at a different angle than mild loads). I inspect the brass, looking for breech markings on the head and maybe excessive "scratching" along the body which may indicate high pressure, but not really conclusive.. Pressure signs for a semi-auto are more difficult to define. Actually, there are no absolutes when it comes to pressure signs. Something that may indicate high pressure in one gun may not show up on another gun. Some calibers/firearms may exhibit no pressure signs until catastrophic case failure. I'd use starting loads from a Hornady manual for an equivalent weight/profile bullet and maybe some other member can tell us of more pressure signs in a semi-auto...

Personally, I'd stow the FCD and just use a plain old taper crimp die to remove any flare in the case mouth...
 
I suggest you make sure the Berry's didn't leave "plated" jacket in your carbine and pistols bores.

If you did have some plating shear off it could explain your terrible accuracy and excess pressure signs when shooting the RMR bullets.

Also... you did load the RMR bullets with less powder ... Right?

In other words restart the reloading procedure... start load work up.
 
It would help if you could tell us how many grains of powder you are using? I am guessing that the load data provided by Hodgons for a 124 grain jacketed bullet "should" be close for your use. I use Longshot exclusively for 9mm, 147 grain XTP and don't experience the same performance as you describe. Have you checked your scale? Have you double charged the case? Magnum primer or small pistol?
 
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I only use Unique powder for 9MM so can't comment on your powders except I wouldn't recommend Longshot even though it may have data for it. Make sure you have good neck tension on the bullet. IF you can push the bullet in farther by your thumb or by pushing the bullet against your bench it will cause problems and even pressure problems. Sometimes RP 9MM pistol brass which has thinner walls than others and don't grip bullets tight enough. I suspect this may be part of your problem. Normally I seat 124 hollowpoints or flat points to 1.125" and round nose FMJ's to 1.150". l agree to check your carbine for plating or lead fouling. I get about 1050 fps with 124 fmj's and in my Kel-Tec carbine around 1200-1250 fps. Check your neck tension.
 
If its any help, I have not been able to load accurate 9mm ammo either (pistol only)

I have found mine shoots tack driver with the RP Golden Sabre.

I tested some of those hard (almost impossible) to get bullets, didn't change.

So mine are just practice and as they are a very well rated SD bullet, I keep those in the gun (and fire one after a range session to be sure they are spot on)

For your carbine you might get some Bore Tech eliminator and clean it with that and see what you get out of it.
 
Yes , I'd like to know what your loads are . I don't have the lee manual but i do have 4 other manuals plus online data . It's my understanding lee uses other manufatures published data . I don't know if they have CFE pistol data but i can say my lyman , seirra and hornady manuals do not . Does the lee have CFE pistol data ? If not where did you get yours ?

Hodgdon has cfe pistol and 124gr plated @ 4.9 gr to 5.5gr . Id think brass jacked bullet would be much harder then plated bullets which should create more resistance going down the bore . This intern could raise pressure .

Also what's the diameter of RMR bullets compared to the plated bullets ? Did hou measure them ?
 
Thanks for all the help and suggestions folks. I am using the Lee Manual data which is identical to the data on the Hodgdon website. For CFE Pistol i have dropped my load for the RMR FMJs down to 5.0 from the 5.2 I was using with the Berry's . For Longshot I have reduced my load to 4.9 for the FMJs down from 5.4 with the plated bullets. These are both only .1 above starting loads and I'm still getting recoil in excess of any factory loads I have to shoot alongside. At this point I'm thinking it may be the brass FMJ being harder and creating more resistance , or perhaps my scale is off. My brother has a very precise scale he uses for weighing precious metals that I am going to try to borrow and compare that to what I'm getting with the Lee scale. I'm also going to try to pick up some regular Winchester/Remington/Hornady FMJs at Cabela's and see if these have any different effect to try to rule out the bullets. Also, more and more I'm realizing that a chronograph needs to be high on my list of future purchases.

The only other thing I can think to do is back out my length further but I'm already well above minimum COL and I think this may cause feeding issues
 
I think the scale is your key here. Although, if you are using the Lee balance scale, it's very hard to error with that device. Have you any lead cast bullets with the same weight by chance? If so, would suggest loading a few rounds and see if you get the same results, obviously with the correct grain load. As to your OAL, bring it back to what is "normal" for your chamber as you don't need to complicate the issue of "why?"
 
Are you getting sooty scorched cases ? I get very sooty scorched cases when using those powders . That's using plated bullets and all the way to max charge . If you're not getting sooty cases I'd say you are still pushing them hard for what ever reason and backing off a little more may be what you need .
 
Sounds like your main concern is recoil. What factory ammo are you comparing the handloads to? You may have some lighter factory ammo. Look up the factory ballistics, the manufacturer will have a website that has velocity, drop, etc., and compare that to the velocities listed for your chosen load in a good manual
 
check your powders burn speed and might want to switch to something faster
or download the charge.
longshot is slow in pistol in rifle length barrel it should give more umph
your probably hitting 1200fps easily
chronograph is your friend.

plated bullet like berrys I dont know if they like going fast think they or another plated manufacture listed speeds supported. keep in mind barrel twist rates can affect some things as well.
 
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