New Gun Owner in Fort Worth

P

Pipper

New member
I live in Fort Worth, and I spent the first five years of my life in a home that's within a mile of where the Wedgewood Baptist Church is now located.

I purchased two handguns for my wife and I within the past two months. We've both passed the CHL course and are applying for our licenses.

We were in our church (approximately 20 miles from Wedgewood Baptist) last night for Wednesday night services when the announcement was made of the tradegy at Wedgewood Baptist. It was an odd feeling to hear about this terrible event occurring so close to our church and that could have so easily happened in our church. We, being law abiding citizens, were not carrying our handguns: we left them at home, as we always do, since we don't have our permits.

If I understand correctly, I think that the law prohibits even licensed citizens from carrying a handgun in a church. If that's true, what a shame! Many law abiding, responsible citizens with CCW permits would not carry the one thing that could prevent such a tragedy because of their respect for the law.

I heard Vice President Gore commenting on the shooting this morning making reference to, among other things, child safety trigger lockes and a three day waiting period. I'm not surprised, and I shake my head in disgust.
 
Carry anyway... practice civil disobedience to unconstitutional law...

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.quixtar.com
referal #2005932
 
Pipper--you may wish to verify this by reviewing your CHL class materials, etc. rather than take anyone's word for it. However, you and your wife can carry in church in Texas as long as the church has not posted lawful notice to the contrary.

As originally passed in 1995, the Texas concealed handgun law flatly prohibited carry in churches. However, the revisions to the law passed two years later and signed by Gov. Bush allow carry in church *unless* an individual church chooses to prohibit it. The requirements that churches must follow for written or verbal notice prohibiting legally carried handguns are the same as for businesses.

See especially Texas Penal Code 46.035 subsection (i), which limits the prohibition on carry in church found in subsection (b)(6).

I hope this helps.


[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited September 16, 1999).]
 
ARGHH, I'm confused now. The CHL handbook says in CH 46 that CHL holders are prohibited from carrying in a church building. So where's the amendment to this that says it's now OK, as long as it ain't posted? HELP!

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"First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shalt be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch
towards thou foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it." The Book of Armaments CH 2, vs.9-21
 
What would have happened if a legal gun owner carried his gun into the church and stopped the Nut Job before he could kill too many people? Would the hero be prosecuted for carrying illegally.

I know in NY he probably would be prosecuted, although convicting him (or her ) would probably be difficult. The hero's life would be very difficult and he would probably loose his permit here in NY.

Yeah, trigger locks would really have helped here.

Geoff Ross

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Damn!...I need more practice!
 
Darthmaum--the amendment is there in 46.035, if you have the text of the Penal Code as revised in 1997. The prohibition on carrying in churches is in subsection (b)(6). From there, go down to the end of 46.035 and check out subsection (i), which limits (b)(6) and three other subsections. Specifically, the text of subsection (i) is:

"i.Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06."

IOW, for (b)(6) to apply, written or verbal notice is required (30.06), just like for businesses that want to prohibit concealed carry. Without such notice, concealed carry is legal on those premises.

BTW, during the 1997 legislative session, subsection (i) was inserted at the last moment, which accounts for its odd position and relationship to the rest of the section. I'm glad it's there, but leave it to the legislature to make us read all the way to the end to find out that what we just read doesn't necessarily apply!

I hope this clarifies some. Take care. :)



[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited September 20, 1999).]
 
WOW! Jimmy, you are correct. I had heard it passed but did not see it in the book. Thanks. It restricts carry on the premisis of a church yet says it doesn't apply unless the 30.06 sign is up.
 
30.06 Sign? "Thou shall not carry concealed within these permises unless thy armament is chambered for .30-06."

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
Not being from one of our larger Texas cities I don't have the exposure of some of you "city slickers" have so maybe someone can enlighten me on something. Just how many "official no firearms" notices, posted correctly has anyone seen. Personally, I haven't seen one yet. Not here or in any of the trips I've made to the Metroplex in the last few years. By "official" I mean 1" high letters, correct color and in two languages (I'm not talking about the 51% notice). My understanding is that to post the notice correctly (to make it a legal notice) would take about a 4 sf area. True or false?

My local Southwestern Bell cellular office has a typed notice on a piece of paper about 3"x5" stating some BS about "..promoting a safe workplace for employees.." or somethng like this, but that's the only thing I've seen locally in the last 2 years. At first there were a few around but all were taken down after the owners got a lot of heat about them and they were all something some printing company had made and sold the uninformed business owner. Again, anybody seen "the real thing"?
 
Westex, I have seen plenty of them in Austin. Usually the are in smaller business and some in national chain stores. I saw one the other week that I did not like. It was at a local psuedo upscale bakery, and made of cardboard with black lettering on it. It stated simply, "No weapons allowed".
Jimmy is correct, and I could not remember the section, but essentially it is a violation to carry at a church if it is posted that it is illegal to do so.
So no sign prohibiting, no violation, no problem.

[This message has been edited by Phillip (edited September 17, 1999).]
 
"No weapons"? Stick it to 'em.

I'd walk into this upscale bakery, politely wait my turn, and then state I need to provide baked goods for my church group of 200 to 250 people. He'd be happy for a large and easy sale.

In passing, I'd ask about the "no weapons" sign. Whatever he explained, I'd reply something to the effect, "Well, I do have a CHL so it's clear you don't want MY business," and walk out.

Stick it to 'em.
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At the mall, my wife and I played good cop/bad cop.

My wife walked into an "upscale beautique". She was the only customer so she was assisted immediately by a salesgirl. As my wife began to select rather expensive dresses (and discuss detailed alterations) the store manager also assisted my wife (who enjoyed the shopping immensely).

I showed up at the door. My wife pulled out her checkbook and motioned for me to come look at these dresses she was going to buy. I pointed to the 30.06 sign and said, "I can't come in."

The sales manager immediately said to ignore the sign and invited me into the store.

I again pointed to the sign, "It's the law."

My wife looked the store manager in the eye, "Well, if my husband isn't welcome here then neither am I."

As the manager followed my wife and tried valiantly to save a several hundred dollar sale, we left.

Stick it to 'em.
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Businesses have the right to keep weapons out of their businesses.
Citizens have the right to vote with their dollars.

Let 'em know it. Stick it to 'em!

RKBA!

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited September 17, 1999).]
 
Dennis & Leona - ROTFLMAO/WMP!!!

Yessss! Stick it to 'em, again and again. Sooner or later, a CHL holder will be in the right place at the right time when/where their action can't be ignored, and maybe the sheeple will realize that we AREN'T the problem.

Carry on, Dude & dudette! M@
 
Pipper,

I was in our church about 25 miles from the tragedy in Fort Worth on Wednesday night. We were having our own youth service. When I arrived home, I heard about what had happened. This really hammered home to me that this kind of thing can happen ANYWHERE at ANY TIME.

Church is the one place I haven't carried since getting my CHL over a year ago. I just didn't see the need and my wife was very opposed to it. The day after the shooting, my wife asked me to start carrying in church. It took a tragedy like this to open our eyes.

Jimmy is correct that CHL carry is prohibited in church ONLY if the church has the legally correct sign posted. The way the law is written is very confusing but this is what it says.

Westex,
It is fairly rare to see a properly worded notice posted in the legally required manner. I see them most often at hospitals.

[This message has been edited by Bob Jenkins (edited September 17, 1999).]
 
Just be glad there's such a thing as CCW anywhere in your state--I can't even have a gun out of its case or within reach of ammo in my car, much less carry the icky, evil thing on my person. (I live in the People's Socialist Paradise of Illinois, where we're not weighed down by burdens like choices.) :)

K80GEOFF, I wouldn't be shocked to see some anti State's Attorney try such a thing, but they tried to do it when the assistant principal of a middle school somewhere down South used a handgun to stop a shooting by a student and it got shot down by public outrage. His gun was in his truck, which put it within 1000 feet of the school, so he had to run and get it. He didn't stop any shootings in his building, but he did intercept the kid on the way to the high school. Rather than question what could have happened if the guy hadn't had to run for his gun and leave the kid blasting away inside, the idiots got mad that he would dare to have brought the gun he used to save some of their kids' lives. How do you argue with someone capable of such a response?

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Don

"Hey you, let's fight!"
"Them's fightin' words!"
 
There are few churches that have posted
a 30.06 sign yet.

As far as posted businesses. I see them
in hospitals, for example - Methodist
and the Health Science Center in San Antonio.

As far as businesses, the Arboretum in
Austin has the correct language only in
English (guess who's the racist here) and
the size maybe wrong. Also the placement.
They probably won't hold.

Interestingly, branch banks from IBC
have correct signs. However, an interesting
note is that they have some on their little
minibranches in the Albertson's supermarket.
The market doesn't post.

Since the bank is like a little counter in
the market - a couple of times I got the
manager out of his office and demanded to
know where the line was. What fun!

Never use IBC. Albertson's says they have
nothing to do with IBC and don't ban.

Sometimes IBC has a promotion in the market
and one of their guys stop me. I drag them
over to the sign and make a speech.

bye

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Check out Cyberguns -
An Internet Resource
at http://www.enconnect.net/cyberguns
 
Dennis, you and your wife are to be commended. I'll try to get my wife to 'go along' w/a similar scheme.

I can carry anywhere in Texas regardless of the signs. But many of my CHL friends cannot cause they are not cops. I'll support them by practicing your technique.

Stick it to 'em. :)
 
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