new automatic weapons on sons of guns?

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Klein Helmer

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I was talking with a friend the other night who was making some comments about automatic weapons that I didn't think made much sense. He was claiming that in some state, Missouri, I believe, it was easier for one to obtain, "automatic weapons."

I told him that so far as I knew, automatic weapons were equally easy/difficult to come by in any state; that one would simply need to apply/qualify for/and obtain the appropriate tax stamp, and then they would be able to purchase an automatic weapon. I explained that the difficulty in obtaining one came into play where the prices of the weapons were concerned, as they have not been manufactured (or as far as I know imported) since 1986.

I've only been reading about/firing/purchasing guns for a few years, but I was fairly certain I was correct on the above points. He then started talking about the show, "Sons of Guns," and told me that very often they manufactured or assembled, "new," or custom made automatic weapons.

I'd honestly never seen the show, and can't see going back to watch it, but can anyone make sense of this? Were they actually making auto weapons, and if so, how were they able to do this?

Thanks in advance, I hope everyone is having a wonderful afternoon.

Regards,

- H

edit - I did run a couple of searches on google but I couldn't find the information I was looking for.
 
No, you can't make new fully auto for the general public. Sons of Guns claimed to do it for police and military. They were full of crap.

The show was a fraud and the 'head' tough guy honcho was a fraud and a rapist/child molester as claimed in numerous charges.

Is there anymore to be said. Let's avoid a series of attacks on the show which all now acknowledge as an embarrassment to the network and gun world.
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
No, you can't make new fully auto for the general public. Sons of Guns claimed to do it for police and military. They were full of crap.

The show was a fraud and the 'head' tough guy honcho was a fraud and a rapist/child molester as claimed in numerous charges.

Is there anymore to be said. Let's avoid a series of attacks on the show which all now acknowledge as an embarrassment to the network and gun world.
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Thanks for the response; that is what I thought.

Do you or anyone else by any chance have a source indicating that they were never making automatic weapons?

Also, for the police? Are there domestic police departments that use automatic weapons?

Additionally, were there depictions of them, "making," or, "firing," the allegedly automatic weapons? If so, were these just special effects?

Sorry for being so meticulous, the dude I was talking to is a bit of a know it all and I want to make sure to wrap this up tight.

With regard to the scandal, I had heard about that, and yes from what I heard it was a total disgrace, but my intention in making this thread was not creating a platform for cheap insults.

I was just trying to figure out what my buddy thinks he was looking at.

Thanks again, man.
 
They would have had to have had the proper FFL/SOT, which is a Federal Firearms License allowing a licensed business or individual to possess, create, and sell machine guns. Typically, a licensed SOT can create their own machine guns for the purposes of research and development. They may also possess post-sample (after 1986) firearms if they have a letter from a qualifying agency asking them to demo those types of firearms.

They can not make them for the average buyer, but there's a lot of trickery on that show about certain things being made. Sometimes they spend a half a sentence barely acknowledging that the customer will not actually be able to own the gun they create, but sometimes they don't even do that.

They also famously glance over things like the Form 1 required for the Desert Eagle w/ Shoulder stock they do in one episode, among other things.
 
dakota.potts said:
They would have had to have had the proper FFL/SOT, which is a Federal Firearms License allowing a licensed business or individual to possess, create, and sell machine guns. Typically, a licensed SOT can create their own machine guns for the purposes of research and development. They may also possess post-sample (after 1986) firearms if they have a letter from a qualifying agency asking them to demo those types of firearms.

They can not make them for the average buyer, but there's a lot of trickery on that show about certain things being made. Sometimes they spend a half a sentence barely acknowledging that the customer will not actually be able to own the gun they create, but sometimes they don't even do that.

They also famously glance over things like the Form 1 required for the Desert Eagle w/ Shoulder stock they do in one episode, among other things.
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Interesting.

So there is actually some sort of license available that does allow certain people to make and fire new machine guns. I would imagine this is considerably more difficult to come by than the stamp allowing a normal civilian to own a pre 86 machine gun?

So, to the best of your memory, did you ever see them or hear about them making modern machine guns? If so, does that mean that they either had the applicable license, were in gross violation of the law, or misrepresenting reality? Any idea which of those is closest to the mark?
 
Yes, several times they assembled new machine guns.

I remember a Browning M2 parts kit, as well as a Saiga 12 gauge gatling gun (3 fully automatic Saigas), on top of a couple other things. They also modified a couple machine guns customers had, including an Uqi and a Browning M1919.

I think they did something with a Browning Automatic Rifle also.

Of course, it could have been all TV magic that they didn't actually make them and instead used already made samples from another licensed gun manufacturer.

There is a license available to manufacture, possess, or deal in machine guns (both NFA and Post-sample), but you are right that it is more difficult to get and it's expensive. I believe you have to be able to show proof that you are actually in the business involving these firearms so a typical person can not just get the license. Others probably know more about that.

EDIT: Will Hayden at one point had an FFL allowing him to possess machine guns and had it revoked after losing track of several registered machine guns or parts. I believe Joe is the character in the show who actually held the FFL that was used and was the owner of the shop, Will Hayden was made to look like the owner and operator for the purposes of the show.
 
dakota.potts said:
Yes, several times they assembled new machine guns.

I remember a Browning M2 parts kit, as well as a Saiga 12 gauge gatling gun (3 fully automatic Saigas), on top of a couple other things. They also modified a couple machine guns customers had, including an Uqi and a Browning M1919.

I think they did something with a Browning Automatic Rifle also.

Of course, it could have been all TV magic that they didn't actually make them and instead used already made samples from another licensed gun manufacturer.

There is a license available to manufacture, possess, or deal in machine guns (both NFA and Post-sample), but you are right that it is more difficult to get and it's expensive. I believe you have to be able to show proof that you are actually in the business involving these firearms so a typical person can not just get the license. Others probably know more about that.

EDIT: Will Hayden at one point had an FFL allowing him to possess machine guns and had it revoked after losing track of several registered machine guns or parts. I believe Joe is the character in the show who actually held the FFL that was used and was the owner of the shop, Will Hayden was made to look like the owner and operator for the purposes of the show.
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Wow.

I had no idea that those types of licenses existed; but I can't help wondering to what end?

Obviously they can't sell or give away these weapons - so for what purpose are they making them?

Are we talking about private manufacturers with military contracts? Who else would be allowed such a license? And for what purpose?

Like I said, I'm pretty naive on the gun legislation, but I really had no idea that anyone outside of the military was allowed to make modern machine guns.

With regard to the weapons you remember them making, do you remember what was done with them, or at least, what they claimed would be done with them?

I don't understand what these guns could be used for and why it wouldn't be a massive waste of money.

Thanks for you patience, guys.

I know I have a lot to learn.
 
The biggest reason for the manufacturing license is to allow manufacturers to produce new firearms for research and product development. The goal is to allow the companies to sell them to military and police. They can also be created for export to other countries. If they didn't allow these licenses before contracts were secured, there would be no competition and little ability to create new products. Many bigger companies, such as Sig Sauer and FN Herstal, hold these licenses to develop the products they sell to the military and police as well as to overseas organizations.

The license also allows companies to make silencers, short barreled rifles, etc. Companies like SilencerCo, Serbu, and others make NFA items have to have some kind of Federal Firearms License (I believe an 02 or an 07) in addition to the special occupational tax they must pay. These items are legal to sell, although restricted.

In the show, I don't remember them saying specifically if any of the machine guns were going to the customer. Here's an example with 3 automatic shotguns they formed a gatling gun with. They constantly refer to it as the customer's gun, which would be illegal unless he also had that license or if each of the shotguns were pre-1986 registered machine guns (doubtful).

They've also built guns like a Lahti 20mm anti-tank rifle and a Desert Eagle with a shoulder stock (two random examples) which would have to be NFA registered, but they act like the customers are able to get the guns home the same week they order them.
 
A manufacturing company with the proper license can manufacture new MGs. These guns are only allowed to be sold to LE and the Military. As an employee of that company you can be in possession of those guns and twke them around to demo for agencies or Military

If I remember correctly, they had an in with some local PD or SO and would most likely claim the MGs were demo units for that agency. Not really all that uncommon
 
"tough guy honcho was a fraud and a rapist/child molester as claimed in numerous charges."

I heard those "charges" originated with a PO'd EX who thought she got shorted in the dissolution. Don't know the guy and don't know if the charges were real or made up.
 
Don't know the guy and don't know if the charges were real or made up.
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Then all you have to do is spend about 1 minute of your valuable time and search "Will Hayden."

You will find out he has been is accused of raping a young girl multiple times between March 2013 and August 2014; and indicted on two counts of aggravated rape in East Baton Rouge Parish, and one count of forcible rape in Livingston Parish.

He has pleaded not guilty to the charges.

He's recently lost a Red Jacket Arms licensing case to his former partners who were awarded $130,000 in damages.

So far, it appears as though none of the legal problems were "made up."
 
OP seems not to understand something.

Al the US agencies buy full auto weapons. Almost every agency has an incredible number of fraud investigators AND at least one heavily armed "SWAT" team that serves related warrants.

There are VERY VERY few police departments that DO NOT have full automatic weapons. It is not abnormal for police departments to have one or more per officer in an armory. That ratio probably decreases as department size grows. NYPD probably does not have 51,000 full auto weapons. The three small local departments I have information about have more than one full auto per officer. How do they get them?

ONE, they are seized or "anonymously" turned in. The PD can then take posession and register them. TWO, the US DOD gives them them to the departments for an administrative "write-off" and to transfer maintenance and storage to the local PDs. I believe it is limited to one M16 per full time equivalent officer. I believe some other larger weapons are also available along with all sorts of non-firearm equipment. Three, they can buy it from a manufacturer with the required licenses.

The seized stuff is a mix of random things that often are in bad condition. Some departments are very happy with their military hand-me-downs, but some complain they are outdated models that have seen a lot of use. If you want to outfit something like a SWAT team, it is usually done with new equipment.

The State Department also purchases a lot of weapons.
Private security companies purchase a lot of weapons.

As to who owns the FFL, that is a game that seems to be played quite often when an owner gets into trouble.
 
It isn't that unusual for a big time gunsmith/FFL to make legal MG's. I've known several in my time and I'm not that well traveled! Always makes me jealous when one of them pulls out a "new" MP5 or other MG they put together for a relatively low price. They will demo it for the local police, etc. They can't sell it to regular folks. Either they retain it, sell it to an entity that can buy new MG's, or they have to destroy it for parts.

Gregg
 
You can be licensed to manufacture fully automatic weapons. Glock, Colt, Fn, Bushmaster, and Rock River, just to name a few manufacture them. They have to be sold to military, law enforcement agencies, and security corporations. Many, many builders are licensed to manufacture them. Security contractors are where the bulk of the sales from the small manufacturers go. Red Jacket was and is licensed to manufacture weapons including automatic weapons. Will held the license until 2011. He lost the license in 2011 and they then began to operate under the manufacturing license of Vincent Bucles post 2011.
 
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I saw an older lady (60's) wearing a Red Jacket tshirt in Wally World the other day...
thought about asking her about it, then decided I probably didn't wanna know...

RJ and a few other gun shows popped up at a good time, but most of 'em never showed the reality of the gun world...
RJ went way overboard on the drama & BS...typical Louisianna...

Gunsmoke went overboard on the prices and BS...but the women were OutStanding ;)
Even if you didn't like the overboard pricing, the time they spent promoting Women's Guns raised a lot of interest...
when my Wifey saw that Pink bedazzled 1911, she at first laughed about it,
then decided later it wasn't such a bad idea...

Wild West Alaska was the best of the bunch...and Phred is a cutie :)
Most realistic with the least BS...and very watchable...waiting on the next season :)

I can't think of any others on regular cable...
Sportsman Channel down here is a Pay channel, so I ain't got it yet...
but I sure would love to watch some of the 3-gun shows & whatnot on there :)
 
I was talking with a friend the other night who was making some comments about automatic weapons that I didn't think made much sense. He was claiming that in some state, Missouri, I believe, it was easier for one to obtain, "automatic weapons."
Click to expand...

There were a bunch of states that passed laws a few years ago that said:

"NFA and GCA are federal laws that regulate firearms used in interstate
commerce. If a gun is made in the state, and never leaves the state, the
federal laws do not apply"

Montana was the first, another dozen or so passed similar. All were
declared void by federal courts I believe. That may be what your friend
was referring to.
 
Sometimes they spend a half a sentence barely acknowledging that the customer will not actually be able to own the gun they create, but sometimes they don't even do that.
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Gah. I used to cringe several times a day when a customer would ask why we didn't stock the Odin's Fist Arms 6" fully-automatic 10ga shotgun or somesuch. I'd explain that such things were probably fictional and definitely not available to the general public. The reply would be, "you don't know what you're talking about. Red Jacket sells tons of them."

I used to bite my pillow and cry at night. I'm glad the show is off the air.

I would imagine this is considerably more difficult to come by than the stamp allowing a normal civilian to own a pre 86 machine gun?
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They're two different things. An individual doesn't need a license to own NFA firearms; he has to register the weapon in question and pay a tax. Entities that manufacture or sell NFA items need a license to do so.

In any case, it's legal for licensed entities to make machine guns, but they can't sell them to the general public.
 
I'll admit I watched all of the show that was available on Netflix because there were some cool creations and cool guns on there, but you had to look past the drama and read between the lines on a lot of things.

I remember they also created a manual slide handle for a Glock for a shooter with MS on the show. Turns out, somebody did some research and the slide handle was already available on the market, they just welded two of them back to back and called it their own. That's indicative of the Hollywood magic on the show. I also remember Stephanie shooting a Desert Eagle, but saw a flicker with the muzzle flash. When paused and played in slow-mo, you can see they've actually edited in footage of an entirely different firearm shooting.

But to answer your question, it's not terribly difficult to get a license to create new machine guns if you're an actual business making guns.
 
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