New Ammo

S

Smokepole

Inactive
Guys, Just saw a report on ABC news.I watch it to get my blood pressure up when I feel tired but they had a report that the US Army is comming out with a new tungsten round,they showed one of them I didnt get a good look but it didnt look like it was made for the M-16 maybe I am wrong on that one.They said its purpose was to reduce lead contamination but I am sure it would also make a good AP round as well.Does anybody have info on this.Looks very interesting.
 
If it has the AP properties that it sounds like it will, it will not be available to civilians.

Most manufacturers now offer some type of "green" round that is environmentaly friendly. Federal's Ballisticlean is being promoted very aggressively. They also expoused the virtues of their Nyclad rounds for years.

I think it is a bunch of hooey, but I've talked to a lot of people who really believe in it. I guess the inductry really needs all the positive press it can get.

I know that it is a hell of lot harder to kill ducks with steel than it was with lead.
 
Rob,Let me say this is the first time I have visited this site and to say the least Iam very impressed!!!! WOW what a group of people.You are right this "green" garbage is crazy. I have crippled far more birds with steel than I ever did with lead.The American Rifleman has a good article about about the differences in these lead free primers this month.As for me I will stick with the good stuff.They go on to point out the unstability of this new junk,shelf life is severly reduced,I hate to think of all the bad things when you hear a click instead of a bang.Keep it in the center.
 
Smokepole-
Welcome to The Firing Line. The purpose of "green" ammunition is not so much to protect the shooter as to eliminate the attendant costs of cleaning thousnds of tons of dirt at public ranges. So far, the EPA hasn't gotten after gun ranges...give it time.
Rich
 
FWIW, tungsten is now available in shotshells for hunting. More mass than steel but not as much as lead. More environmentally friendly. A SAAMI compromise no doubt.
 
The US ARMY has been using tungsten on other calibers - mostly heavy calibers... One of the reasons was to give the M-16 an extended life span by improving the cartridge. I doubt the new ammo will be available to even LE agencies. There was a lot of talk about the .223 being too weak for the modern times in the Army... then out comes the .224 BOZ and the what ever the round is called for the P-90... They are touted as being great armour punches... but the same was never said about the .223. Even if those rounds mimiced the .223's balistics. Something had to be done to breath new life into the US MILITARY's M-16. Are we the ONLY nation to STILL be using an over 20 year old rifle? Dont mention the M-4 - we all know it's a chopped 16 - and yes police departments are getting warmed up to it... I love mine...
But to field an OLD weapon? What will replace the old 16?

------------------

Resistance is Futile
 
Tungsten has a density of 19.3 g/cc -- about 70% more dense than lead. That would suggest a smaller bullet with equal mass -- more room for powder?
Tungsten's much harder than lead as well; additionally, its melting temp is over 6000 degrees Fahrenheit.

Hmm...AP round doesn't sound too farfetched all of a sudden...
 
Kodiac,not sure what is the next generation military rifle will be but if it has the same reputation as the first M-16s lord help the good guys.My father visited me for open house at Ft Benning ga.when he got to the M-16 and the 5.56mm he held it up and said"son your in trouble if you have to fight with this"that was in 86.Needless to say he was a 30 cal. man.Fat Man yes tungsten make great electrodes for 'TIG' welding to,which makes me think the price for them will be quite high which is sure to cut down on range time.I belive the ss109 was an attempt to give the .223 a little punch and range.Well guess we will have to wait and see what they come up with.Keep it in the center.
 
see the usatoday 23 feb article by andrea stone : "green army bullets to get the lead out" the story is full of holes and i think is ment to close rifle ranges.
 
Ya all better grab yer ankles cuz now we're seriously outgunned. The new cartridge is a saboted tungsten needle that Has a muzzle velocity of OVER 5000FPS out of the M-16. Just sit and ponder on that for a minute. 5000FPS! Now all I gotta do is contact some of my bros at a certain base....wonder what the drop will be at 800m?

------------------

AFFA
 
We've yet to see any of those so-called "green rounds" here in the Corps, but then again, we always seem to get the hand-me-downs! When I first heard about it, I also thought it was a bunch of hooey. Can't remember how many times I'd cut into a 150 year old maple tree to split it for fire wood only to find an old lead bullet buried in it. Hmmm... didn't seem to effect the tree too much. I think this "Green" push is just the EPA trying to find a new way to limit what we shoot. Big brother is watching, and waiting!
 
Guy's,This info came from SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD pub.in 1983.The 7.62x51mm slap cartridge developed by Olin Corp. for US ARRADCOM.This first generation Saboted Light Armor Penetrator of Tungsten is capable of penetrating .75 inch (19mm) of rolled homogeneous steel armor plate.It has a picture of a test plate and a cross section of the round itself.It reminds me little of the Accelorator round from Remington.Does'nt say anything about the .223 but we have one now it looks like.
 
Tungsten would seem definitely armour piercing. NRA's "American Guardian" (January - possibly the "Rifleman" aslo) has an article on new indoor ammo. Total metal jacket takes care of lead poisoning (actually dangerous in molten/gas phase - stable once fired unless eaten and digested into organic compounds) and they appear to be working on removing the lead from primer compounds (used to be mercury in the fulminates). I've tried the Speer 230 gn TMG 'Lawman' - their entry into this market - in 45 ACP though haven't tested properly yet: Seems to behave ok, only complaint is a bit more expensive (but i like the Speer -'Spare?' :) brass for reloading).
Notice that gold and platinum come close to Tungsten density (silver close to lead) - maybe the next step in 'enviromental' ammo that would price shooters off the ranges...
 
Elchimango I think you are right about they are setting up the next attack on our rights.I read the article about primers in the Rifleman,I'll stick with the old stuff for now Lead styphnate that is.The writer seems to give me the impresstion that he does'nt recommend them just yet,also CCI is the only company that offers reloaders a choice so far.
 
This round was produced in responsed to the EPA closing some military ranges for lead getting into the groundwater. A couple of weeks ago Army Times had an article on this. The scary thing was it hadd an illustration of the standard M855/M856 round with a listing of every component that the EPA considered hazardous material. Everything from the green (or red in case of M856) paint on the tip of the bullet to the laquer sealer over the primer is "evil stuff that will harm children".

I scanned the article if anyone wants to read it. Ed Avila put the illustration up on AR15.com at http://www.ar15.com/images/tmp/toxic%20Bullet.gif

I think this has more to do with backdoor gun control (as soon as the military perfects it, how long after that will it be before all of us will be required to to shoot only environmentally safe "green" ammo. For the children of course.) then it has to do with saving the environment. After all doesn't the "evil" substance called lead come out of the ground to start with?

Jeff
 
Are we all talking about the same thing?

Is ABC news trying to sell a revamped SLAP round as something that was developed because it is environmentally friendly?

Are there two rounds? One green and one saboted?

I am sooo confused....
 
Rob,When they showed round on TV it didnt look like the SLAP rd,but then again I didnt get a good look either.Tried to look at the document that Jeff W.mentioned at the AR15 site to get more info but couldnt get there.I am sure this will add to the confusion.smiley here.
 
I'll be glad to e-mail it to anyone that wants to read it. I'm not sure if it'd be legal to post the entire article here or on another site due to copyright laws.

If Rich want's to put it up here for everyone to read I'll send it.

It was in the February 1st issue of Army Times and is entitled 'Green' but still mean bullet gets the lead out.

The article says the bullet has a tungsten/tin or a tungsten/nylon core. (They are testing both) It gives a maximum effective range of 400 meters and a muzzle velocity of from 990 to 1000 meters per second.

It says the bullet has been in development for three years as part of a program called Range 21. The article also says that it wasn't developed soon enough to stop the EPA from ordering all live fire training halted at the Massachusetts Military Reservation after a study showed that lead and other harmful materials were showing up in the local communities water supply. The reservaation is near a "sole source" water supply that services more than 200000 residents.

Based on this article and one that was in "Soldiers" magazine a couple of months ago about the same ammo being used in Alaska, I think it is designed not to harm the environment, not to enhance armor piercing capability. The reported max effective range is less then the M855 round.

Does anyone remember the EPA ruling that was going to stop lead fishing weights from being legal a few years ago? Congress stepped in and stopped that. Fishing is much more PC then shooting (at least until they stop shooting and hunting - then they'll go after fishing) so this could be a back door way to restrict our ability to shoot.
Jeff
 
Seems that I read about a French cartridge that's very similiar. It's an AR designed to run 4000fps in a 9in sub-gun. The 224 BOZ is a joke when compared to our own SS-109.

------------------

AFFA
 
Again, I think someone is confused.

The round that old biker, et al are talking about has been around forever. It is a saboted .223. You can buy them at any decent gun show for $3-4 a round.
Unless, the Army has developed a new saboted round.

Either way, the round that is being talked about in Army Times and on ABC news is simply a non-leaded environmentally friendly version of NATO 5.56 Ball ammo.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top