Negatives about Bullpups?

cannonfire

New member
I was curious how come it seems that U.S. hasn't been trying bullpup designs with all their recent (past couple of years) rifle testing. Maybe I just haven't heard of it.

Same barrel, but shorter overall length, seems to solve the problem between which is better a M4 or M16.

I don't know much about bullpups but is there a key flaw in the ergonomics? weight? balance?

It seems more European countries are using them France and Britain, plus I believe Australia uses a bullpup. China has a bullpup AK, if I'm not mistaken. I think its India or Pakistan's paratroopers are using FS2000s.

Just curious.
 
1st: familiarity. all current u.s. infantry are trained to shoot m4s and m16s, and a very small number are trained specifically for another weapon such as the m14. to switch over to bullpup would require retraining of a lot of troops (even if it seems like it shouldnt require that much in the way of training, the military needs a course and a stamp of approval before they will let you shoot a weapon in combat). plus, while they were in the transitional phase, logistics would be a serious problem because each unit would be different in what they had been trained in.

which leads me to number 2: expense. the government has billions invested into the m16 platform. between buying new guns and training people to use them, the expense of switching would be astronomical, plus all the money invested in the still viable m16 platform would be lost.

between those two, its pretty hard to get any weapon past the m16, bullpup or otherwise.

and actually, i believe the coast guard uses the AUG, so we do use a bullpup....just extremely limitedly.
 
I personally dislike the ergonomics and believe a person could reload faster with a Standard rifle, like the M4. Also has a crappy trigger. Incorporating prone with a 30rd mag sticking out of the stock would be difficult. Again with the barrel closer to your head. Limited mounting system on most, i'm thinking specifically of the AUG. I'm just not a huge fan of them, and i hate the ergonomics.

I would also imagine more recoil being lighter in the front and all the moving parts in the rear.
 
Short sight radius, crappy trigger, small explosions right next to you face, reliability problems, and like you said France uses one.
 
I don't know much about bullpups but is there a key flaw in the ergonomics? weight? balance?

While bullpups are usually fairly compact in regard to length, some are bulky in other dimensions.

The Aug runs about 7.9 lbs and the M4 about 6.3 lbs. Some of the other bullpups are heavy as well.

I don't know about balance, but the triggers on the models I have shot have all been less than crispy. Squishy would be an apt description.

Stock are usually fixed.

Just a mc223 personal note: 60000 psi right next to my ear. NOT
I am not sure what you are saying. If you mean to say that you don't want 60000 psi going off next to your ear out of concern for hearing damage, I can't say I ever noticed any difference between bullpups or standard platforms. The sound issue is from the muzzle, not the chamber.

If you meant to say that you don't like the 60000 psi by your ear out of fear that a catastrophic failure of the chamber could cause serious injury to your head from the shrapnel and debris, this is also a concern that I have. Such failures are not common, however.
 
While there is a point that a catastrophic action/chamber failure would cause more damage to your face if it happened in a bullpup than a regular rifle, the instances of this happening are extremely infrequent. Also, most bullpups are designed so that case failures direct gases around the magazine well, so unless there was a complete and utter failure of the chamber (when was the last time that happened?) you would not be injured.

the trigger has been a problem in bullpups for a while, simply because the trigger is not as closely connected to the action. this is being fixed.

according to australian and british forces who were used as test subjects for the bullpup designs now accepted by both of those countries, the balance/ergonomics were actually better than conventional rifles. Also, standing and kneeling shots could be made more accurately, and prone fire was as accurate as with the regular rifles they were being compared against. In fully automatic fire tests, the bullpups were found to have tighter groups, most likely because the rise is easier to compensate for when you are gripping literally underneath the point of recoil (the muzzle).

while you are correct that they are bulkier in other dimensions, they are actually easier to store and transport and moving while ready to fire is easier as well because of the overall more compact shape. Long distance foot travel with a 1.6 lb heavier weapon might add up over time, but lighter bullpups could certainly be developed, and, honestly, most of the long distance walking done by armed personnel is done during guard tours with the weapon held, not slung.

a google search showed nothing about concerns for the speed of reloading. While standing or kneeling, it is the same as reloading a conventional rifle, except your left hand doesnt have to move as far forward to change the clip. while prone, the bullpup must simply be turned sideways. which you would probably have to do for a regular rifle, anyway, if you were using a 30 round clip.

as for the sight radius, the AUG A1 and A3 don't have irons for that very reason. they are designed to be used with an optic, which the A1's already had installed. Same thing with the FS2000 and the P90. which is probably a flaw in the design (both expense of the optic and necessity to keep another electronic working, which, if it fails, leaves you with a gun you cant aim, at least not quickly with any accuracy).
 
As an Australian I can tell you I have no faith in the F88 Steyr AUG and if you speak to most people, myself included, we would have the SLR L1A1 back in a heartbeat.

A modern soldier shouldn't have to be thinking and worrying about how many rounds he fired, relative to overheating and whether your fire arm might cook off on you when you are under fire - let alone trying save the life of your mates and yourself.

The Steyr is a plastic fantastic and has been at the center of quite a few inquiries both from within, and from without the Defense community. In my view the weapon system is a lame duck - we were better off sticking with the SLR. Sadly, most of the people who make decisions about the weapons systems aren't qualified to do so. The enemy isn't going to hold fire while you wait for your rifle to cool off ... it's just ridiculous we have to deal with this in a modern army.

Read this Defense review submission from Ron Owen ... says it all! --> http://www.mail-archive.com/public-list@neither.org/msg01331.html

Defence Review 2000

R1-5A137

Russell Offices

Canberra

ACT, 2600

Submission:- The Defence Australia

Defence:-The People Hope for a Defence System

-The People Pay for a Defence System

-The Politician Spend for a Defence System

-The Bureaucrats Ensure we Never have a Defence System

-Our Soldiers Die for the Lack of a Defence System

-Eventually Australia will have to defend itself again. Will your Families Die for the Lack of a Defence System?

Dear Sirs

The Hon. Alex Somlyay our local member of parliament sent me one of your information packs and suggested that I forward you this submission.

Experience

After three years in the 22nd Cheshire Regiment, cadets and three years in the Grenadier Guards, I completed a four-year course in engineering and was employed as a toolmaker/fitter turner.

In the mid seventies I commenced business for myself importing exporting and repairing firearms. During the late seventies and eighties, as a consultant, I designed and assisted with the production of many firearms and firearm related products for government-owned factories in Yugoslavia, Vietnam China and civilian factories in the Philippines and the United Kingdom. In the early eighties Owen Guns began to import most of our firearms in parts assembling them on site in Gympie, selling retail and wholesale.

As a valuer and agent for Interarms, (which at that time was the largest non government firearm dealer in the world buying small arms from one country and selling them to others) I inspected government arsenals in various countries, Yugoslavia, China, Vietnam, United Kingdom reporting on type, condition, serviceability spare parts, price, cost of storage and shipping.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Experience in Defence Force Problems

In 1988 one of my duties was to inspect with a view to purchase 100,000, 303 Lee Enfield rifles, 13000 Smith & Wesson revolvers, 19000 Bren Guns, 4500 Vickers Machine Guns, all Associated Spare Parts and Mortar equipment which was being put up for tender by the Australian Government. I inspected this equipment at three Army main supply depots in three different States of Australia.

After serving in the British Army and being a guest of many distinctively diverse Armies in the world I presumed that I had seen every ‘military cock up’ that was conceivable. I was wrong, when I found out the civilian workers in the depots were not surprised that parts and equipment were stored under the wrong identification number because they had no idea of the subject matter, and no idea how to rectify the identification problems no idea that their was a problem until at great cost, parts were returned from some obscure Army base with a complaint that it was nothing like what was ordered. Parts such as this were lying around still mis labelled, no one knew where to put them as they did n’t know what they were or where they should be.

In my Army time the store were run by ‘Old Sweats’ who were past there active service date, they were not fast moving by any means but they had the experience to know the difference between a part for an Eleven inch Mortar and a part for a Smith &Wesson Revolver. The civilian workers in military installations must at least be Militia or Reserve infantry and some must specialise in artillery and motorised units.

Due to my persistence in asking to view the parts on their stock sheets they resorted to calling on the advice of a lady Captain, who had less than an idea than they did, after several phone calls she did come up with the conclusion that they had a duty to find the parts, as we had a duty to view them before tender. She assured us that the parts were held somewhere but could not tell us where they were. Eventually we were introduced to a young Sargent who did manage to find Thirty Thousand 303 Lee Enfield that the others couldn’t find, (they had been in stock un moved for twenty five years) but he had no idea on parts and fretted when we field stripped Bren and Vickers guns to inspect the barrels as besides us, they had no one on site who had a clue about re-assembling them.

These few examples of abject inefficiency were reiterated though out our inspection in each supply depot we visited.

A few months later I was contacted by Alan Wrigley (ex-Officer in Charge of ASIO) who had been commissioned to produce a white paper on Australian Defence. I submitted my 13 page submission and like all un-complementary submissions, must have fallen through a Black Hole in the bureaucratic ‘Canberra Space’. ‘Yes Minister’ always seems to be the mode of operation in the Australian Defence Department, lots of glossy photo’s of the boys doing their stuff, to hand out to the MPS and Press, a glossy cover up for the massive inadequacies. Billions go into the Defence Propaganda machine instead of purchasing the tools for the troops.

The ‘Canberra Wars’

The movie ‘Pentagon Wars’, is a funny tragic comedy, but the reason it was so funny was because it exposed the truth about modern military purchasing disasters. Disasters which occur in nearly every country in the world on a different scale. Disasters which cost soldiers, sailors and civilian their lives.

The ‘Yes men’ bureaucrats always convince the politician that everything is in their control, that they know. They use a little knowledge of the subject to blind the politicians who have none at all. The men at the sharp end (and there are very few of them with experience these days) are never allowed to talk. The career officer will not allow mistakes to damage that career so ‘cock ups’ continue to be self perpetuated on an ever increasing scale. The ‘Pentagon Wars’ was a comedy but if one watches until the captions at the end you will notice it was all a true story about the disaster of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. We in Australia have had many similar disasters one good example is ‘The Lemon’.

The Lemon The F88 Steyr

While the Sgt-Major bellows at the recruit that "Your weapon was made by the lowest bidder", (when it has a minor maintenance problem and the Sgt -Major wishes to make up for poor design and materials with the concept of cleanliness) may not be strictly true in the instance of the F88 Steyr as production cost to the Australian Defence department began at $1600 per rifle and is now supposed to be at $3200. When a modern AK variant in the same calibre could be obtained for $120.00 USD and a M16 A2 for $900 USD.

Even though the accuracy hit ratio at 300 m has improved, for the new recruits, after the Australian Army went from SAR L1A1 to the Steyr. Due mainly to the lower recoil of the smaller calibre and the addition of a small telescopic scope, it has had many inherent problems in Design and Quality Control :-

# The optic sight often fills with water when rifle is immersed in water obstacles.

# Bayonet breaks and are very front heavy on rifle if needed to shoot at the same time.

# After Bayonet practice the barrels of the rifle were bent, and the bayonet stud damaged so Bayonet could no longer be fitted.

# The Butt Plates fall off even though the retaining pin was still in place.

# Cocking handle easily breaks off when stood on, rifle is then totally useless.

# Poor Eye relief, scope too close to eye, can cause a big black bruise around the eye.

# The Arctic Trigger Guard (for use with thick Arctic gloves) is inappropriate in our climate but would be one of the main causes of un-authorised discharges besides the un-reliable safety catch and the inability of the soldier to visually check that the breech is clear without taking the barrel out.

# Heavy build up of carbon residue on end of gas piston and cleaning causes the thin hard chrome plating to quicky wear off, this exposes the softer metal which when cleaned and corroded continually wears the piston down altering the ability of the rifle to re-cycle and operate due to change in the amount of gas allowed into system.

# The facility for grenade throwing not manufactured or manufactured but not distributed.

# The trigger pull is so heavy it affects accurate shooting.

# Magazines have melted and rotted in Australian sunlight and are not interchangeable with M16 and F89 Minimi machine gun which both can use the same magazine.

# The trigger mechanism is extremely susceptible to dirt and mud. It is not supposed to be dis-assembled by the soldier so it has to be returned to the armoury if its not functioning.

# When on Full automatic fire if rifle does not jam it pulls high and to the right.

# Catch that retains the Barrel malfunctions and sometimes breaks off, barrel sometimes becomes loose and falls out of the rifle.

# When on Full automatic fire if the rifle does not jam, only Three magazines (90) rounds can be fired as the Standing Orders dictate that the rifle has to be left to cool until the barrel can be grasped in the hand, (at least half an hour) this gives the firearm a worse rate of fire then the Martini Henry or Martini Enfield single shot from the Zulu War era, which could fire 6 shots a minute (180 plus in half an hour, continuously).

# F88 loaded weighs exactly the same as the SAR unloaded. In this instance the use of plastic has weakened the rifle, but not really had any positive saving in weight. (you could hardly beat somebodies back door down with it.)

# In the prone position magazine rests on the ground if bumped it can dislodge ammunition in the top of the magazine or push the magazine (if the bolt is in the open position) to a higher position which blocks the bolt from closing causing another jam.

Quantity and Quality, Supply

We hear rumours of shortages of supply and only last week one of our employee’s was giving a lecture at the Yandina/ Nambour, Army Reserve Depot when he noticed a current looking photograph of the Reserves using some 303 Lee Enfield rifles. He asked an officer how current the photograph was and it was confirmed to him that it was only very recently, when he queried to the officer the use of the 303 Lee Enfield Rifles the officer said that due to shortages, that they used three types of rifles, the F88 Steyr, the L1A1 SLRs and the Lee Enfield. In media releases from East Timor we see the prolific weapon is the FN Mini Mi Machine gun and obviously either due to shortages of F88 Steyr or preference by the infantryman.

Our Casualties, Caused by Poor Rifle Design, Not the Enemy

During the Australian Armies 1990 visit to Sudan/Somalia the Un-authorised discharges exceeded 80, one of them resulted in a fatality of a soldier. Un-authorised discharges in Timor have duplicated the Sudan experience and now another Australian soldier has lost his life due to bureaucratic produced disasters. The design of the F88 with its lack of a proper trigger guard, its lack of a fumble proof safety catch and the inability to readily check the operational status of the weapon is one of its greatest failings. If Australian soldiers knew more about their service rifle they would refuse to use it. Unfortunately most of them believe what they are told, others who learn and speak out about its deficiencies even at the officer level are sacked.

We are well behind the Eight Ball already.

It was reported in the April/May edition of the Asia Pacific Defence Reporter page 60 that the Indonesian Army is studying the possibility of manufacturing ergonomically designed firearms of its troops. Studies by Indonesian Armies Weapons Factory at Pindad, using anthropometric analyses and a questionnaire survey of 10,000 soldiers in the regular forces concluded that they would be better served by a new firearm design.

The Standard issue to the regular Indonesian soldiers are the US M16, the Belgium FNC and Pindads own SS-1. The SS-1 is Pindad’s copy of the Belgium FNC they are obviously have an advanced start on Australia in seeking the latest small arm for their soldiers..



Tiki.
 
I have shot a few but fell in love with one. This is my new Kel Tec RFB. A bullpup designed from the getgo to be fully ambidexterous and shoots the 7.62/.308. It is really something and the short sight radius problem is addressed by using a red dot type sight. I also tried it with the BUIS from my AR and had no problems effectively getting a good, stable sight picture. This is a completely new design that is very nicely balanced, to the point of being able to shoot the gun offhand like a large handgun. The recoil is minimal considering the caliber being shot. It is actually about half of what I feel shooting my Winchester Model 70 in .308. The trigger is amazingly smooth and breaks cleanly. It is not a traget trigger, but this is not a target gun either. I have roughly 600 rounds through it and have only had a few FTF's and they were with my personal handloads. The gun is accurate and having the empty brass comint out the front of the gun makes collection so much easier. I am planning on installing a suppressor later this year and heading out to help some friends shrink the hog population that is tearing up their corn crops so badly.

IMG_0166.jpg
 
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Alot of bullpups are not able to be used by lefthanded shooters because the ejected brass goes straight into their face.
 
Triggers generally suck. Misfeeds pretty much take you out of the action. Speed reloads are tough as magazines don't tend to drop free.

Those are some of the issues. Solid posts above as well.
 
I've shot the Aug as well as the Hi-Standard 10-B extensively. I wouldn't worry about stuff like the chamber under your ear, etc. Most of my complaints would be being unable to transition to left handed if the situation demanded it, and kinda clunky handling. Sporting clays with a bullpup isn't exactly the hot setup...

Overall I'd give the Aug high marks- the one I tried shot really well. Better than an M-4? Dunno. I think the bullpup concept is one of those ideas that looked better on paper than it turned out in practice, perhaps.
 
Incorporating prone with a 30rd mag sticking out of the stock would be difficult.

+1

Think of how well Americans shoot with their Rifles. I bet there's no such thing as AUG competitions out there, like there is for the Garand, AR, M1A etc.

I highly doubt the Europeans have an equivalent program to CMP or NRA highpower matches-none of which allow bullpups because bullpups are impractical for accuracy.

Of course, you CAN shoot accurately with a bullpup, but under what circumstances will you be able to do that?
 
none of which allow bullpups because bullpups are impractical for accuracy.
Bullpups tend to be less accurate with iron sights because they have a shorter sight radius. With optics its not an issue. If you think there's something inherent about putting the action behind the trigger that makes the gun's inherent mechanical accuracy lower you're wrong.
 
While there is a point that a catastrophic action/chamber failure would cause more damage to your face if it happened in a bullpup than a regular rifle, the instances of this happening are extremely infrequent. Also, most bullpups are designed so that case failures direct gases around the magazine well, so unless there was a complete and utter failure of the chamber (when was the last time that happened?) you would not be injured.

Chamber failures are rare and even rarer in bullpups because there are so few out there, but still, a failure next to your head would not be good. As for directing gasses out of the mag well, that is pretty standard across the board. The gasses only have so many directions they can go. With that said, even if gasses are intended to go out the magazine chamber, they will come out of every place they can which may include being spewed against the side of the face.

the trigger has been a problem in bullpups for a while, simply because the trigger is not as closely connected to the action. this is being fixed.

"Being fixed"? Really? They don't seem to be making much progress over the last couple decades. So "Being fixed" means that it is a current and ongoing problem that is currently without resolution. You buy one today and you get a really crappy trigger. Any fixes developed after your purchase may or may not be able to be implemented in your current purchase, assuming a fix is viable. If viable, there is no indication that any company is going to retrofit this trigger repairs for free. So at best, you get to buy the gun and then you get to buy a trigger fix at some unknown point in the future.

So let's add that as yet another shortcoming. The current models have crappy triggers. Resolution of the problem hasn't come about in the last two decades. There is no indication that it will be resolved anytime soon and if resolved, that it can be retrofit on current models and certainly not for free.
 
A few common negative impressions about bullpups:
* Point of balance being farther to the rear makes them awkward to carry and harder to hold steady when aiming.
* Reloads/magazine changes are more difficult with pack/field gear on or when prone.
* Triggers are awful due to the use of transfer bars to reach from the trigger rearward to the receiver area. Not that this couldn't be solved, but it will take some novel ideas.
* Typically heavy or bulky in dimensions. Again, this could be solved by designers.
* Noise levels are high due to the proximityof the muzzle to the shooters' faces.

A few positives:
* Shorter overall length makes the rifle very maneuverable.
* Longer barrel for shorter length makes ballistics better than a comparable length traditional design rifle.

I like bullpups, but don't plan on getting one any time soon.
 
Odd how perceptions differ, I always thought that the big advantage of the bullpup design was that the chamber is on the side of my face, so if something fails and parts are moving backwards at high speed it's not my face that gets hit.
 
If you think there's something inherent about putting the action behind the trigger that makes the gun's inherent mechanical accuracy lower you're wrong.

Inaccurate, as in you don't have as steady of a shooting platform. You can't use a sling to shoot better with a bullpup.

From the bench, yes of course they'll be accurate. The same applies to a bipod, if you can even mount one on it.

For precision Marksmanship, I'll take a standard rifle. If I need CQB, a shotgun will suffice.

Not bashing the bullpup, but from a Marksmanship perspective, they aren't as practical.
 
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