Needed: some basic insights for an ignoramus

M

mure

Inactive
Dear folks,

I am writing a piece of fiction that involves the use of a revolver, but unfortunately, since I am from Britain, I have never even seen a real handgun and am very ignorant about the practicalities of using one. I would be very grateful indeed for any insights any of you might be able to offer, especially on the following questions:

What is the most common revolver that is easily carried and concealed?
How does it feel to fire such a gun? How much recoil and how much noise is there? Is there much muzzle flash and smoke?
Do revolvers have safety catches? If so, how do they work and are they easy to click on and off?
When firing the first shot, do you first pull back the hammer to cock it or do you just pull the trigger? How much of a pull is needed?

I know this is all way too basic stuff for you guys, but I would really appreciate any help!

Best wishes,

Mure
 
I'm a detective writer, so I'll have a shot at this, pardon the pun....

What is the most common revolver that is easily carried and concealed?

Probably a Smith & Wesson Chief's Special or a Colt Detective Special, both 2" barrelled snub-nose .38s. If you want to see what they look like, this is a Colt Detective Special:

Colt_38_DS.jpg


and this is a Smith:

m36ls.jpg


How does it feel to fire such a gun? How much recoil and how much noise is there? Is there much muzzle flash and smoke?

How does it feel? When you fire any handgun in a stress situation, you get a sort of "tunnel vision". There will be significant tension in the hands, arms and shoulders. If done properly, the index finger will squeeze (not pull or jerk) the trigger back against spring resistance, and when the gun fires, it will jump a bit in the hand. The noise is more of a crack than a boom. To get an idea of the volume, get a big hardcover book like a dictionary, and slam it down two-handed on a sturdy table. It's about that loud. .38 snubs have moderate recoil (compared to a .45 or .357, for instance). Short barrels tend to have more muzzle flash, a momentary softball (or cricket ball) sized flame, but this is barely visible in daytime. At night, it may result in brief flash-blindness. Most modern cartridges don't produce much smoke.

Do revolvers have safety catches? If so, how do they work and are they easy to click on and off?

No, double action revolvers as a rule don't have safety catches, they rely on a long, heavy trigger pull to avoid unintentional discharges.

When firing the first shot, do you first pull back the hammer to cock it or do you just pull the trigger? How much of a pull is needed?

You CAN cock the revolver first, but this is usually only done when you have a bit of time and want to make a carefully targeted precise shot. A double action revolver has two trigger pulls. When fired without cocking, the pull is long (may travel up to an inch) and may have 12 - 14 pound of resistance, because it has to compress the mainspring and move the hammer back. if you cock the hammer you are compressing the mainspring, so you only need 4 - 5 pounds of trigger pull to release the sear and drop the hammer. The pull is very short, maybe 1/8 inch.

Hope this helps. If you want to read some of my work, go to http://pw2.netcom.com/~davescot/

[Edited by David Scott on 02-06-2001 at 12:54 PM]
 
Mure, I don't know what kind of scene it is that you're creating, but if you are going to address the bullet itself in any manner you might want to learn the proper terminology for that as well. The bullet itself is just that: an inert piece of lead, often having a copper jacket. The unfired round--comprised of the brass case, the bullet, the powder and the primer--is more precisely called a "cartridge."

Few things irk gun owners more than inaccuracies about guns, either in journalism or in fiction.

Good luck in your endeavor.

Dick
 
I will second most of what David has said except that I think he under rates the noise. The noise is sufficient to cause permanent hearing loss even outdoors and so hearing protection is required at most shooting events.

I believe you will find that autoloaders are probably more popular for concealed carry as they tend to be slim and carry more rounds. However, if I had reason to carry a weapon it would be a .38 spl or .357 magnum revolver.

British? Fiction? Hmmm... Must be writing news reports for the British tabloid press. ;}
 
I'm quite certain that one or more of us would be more than happy to 'proofread' relevent portions of text for technical details.

If no one else volunteers, I will. :), though others here likely know far more than me.

Mike
 
I see you are in Taiwan. You might consider getting with your local police, or even the security folks at one of the consulates, try to get some hands on experience and training. You will never know till you ask.

Best, Sam
 
For the most part, David Scott was dead on with his comments. However, I too believe he is somewhat understating the volume of sound produced by a .38 S&W Spl in a snub-nosed revolver. I would say it is considerably louder than David described.

Also to add somewhat to Davids comments about the two trigger pulls of a Double Action revolver. Many people who are taking a precise shot, with plenty of time to take careful aim, cock the hammer before shooting. This gives them the advantage of a lighter trigger pull with less stress to pull the aim off target.

BTW, Monkeyleg is understating the irratation shooters feel when they encounter some glaring error in firearms terminology or usage. I've been know to throw books in the trash without reading another sentence if the error is glaring enough.

I would also like to add my name to the list of volunteer technical proof-readers.

Good Luck on the book

Doc Hudson
 
IIRC there was a thread here a while back about stupid gun mistakes in books. Scan for that one, Mure, and you'll see what to avoid. BTW, I love the way Agatha Cristie parodied that kind of error in her "Tommy and Tuppence" series, having his naive characters referring to their "blue-nosed automatics". :)

The guys are probably right, maybe I do underestimate the noise a bit. Get a REALLY BIG book and slam it REALLY HARD on the table.
 
Mure-

Do you plan on being in the US anytime soon? If so, perhaps you can arrange to meet with one of the TFL guys and you can perhaps handle one of these for yourself. I know Taiwan is a long way to travel from for "Research" but if other business takes you to the US, it would be a prime opportunity to try a gun in a more gun-friendly country.
 
Some teminology and advice (long)

Some terminology:

The round part of a revolver (the revolving part that gives the gun its name) is a "cylinder". A cylinder may have a number of holes, called "chambers", for the cartridges. A Smith and Wesson (not "Western" for heaven's sake!) Chiefs Special holds five cartridges, or "rounds" in its cylinder; a Colt Detective Special holds 6.

The loaded cartridge is called a cartridge or a "round". The bullet is the projectile, part of the cartridge until it is fired. It is the bullet that comes out of the gun, not the cartridge or "shell". Phrases like "I had six bullets in my revolver" sound silly; "six rounds" would be more realistic. Worse would be "I fired two cartridges into him".

The front of a gun barrel is called the "muzzle", not the nozzle.

While all guns intended for one hand firing can be called "pistols" or "handguns", knowledgeable people usually distinguish between revolvers and "automatic" pistols. "Automatic" pistols are usually called that, although they are actually semi-automatic or self-loading. Strictly speaking, an "automatic" weapon fires like a machinegun, until the trigger is released or the magazine is empty. There are also single shot pistols, but they rarely figure in crime or crime fiction.

Automatic pistols have a barrel with a single "chamber" at the back for the cartridge. A moving breechblock, usually of the form called a "slide" moves to the rear when the gun is fired, "extracting" the empty cartridge case (not "hulk" or "shell") from the chamber and "ejecting" it. The slide then moves forward, picks up another cartridge or round from a detachable feeding device, called a "magazine", and pushes the round into the chamber ready for firing when the trigger is pulled.

Some advice:

In general, a writer who is not knowledgeable on guns is well advised to keep it simple. Most writers get into trouble pretending to expertise they don't have. Saying "the detective drew his gun" will be fine. Saying "the detective drew his Smyth and Western 86 caliber Detective Special with the 9 inch nozzle and clicked off the safety catch" may sound impressive to some; to anyone with any knowledge, it just makes the writer look incredibly stupid.

Jim
 
Chad has a good idea. We can try to describe things as best we can, but you'll have a hard time understanding the feeling in your hand, the sound in your ears, the flash, the smell, etc., unless you experience it yourself. I'm a firearms instructor certified by the Massachusetts State Police and the NRA. I teach novices on a regular basis. I'd be glad to introduce you to shooting, either in an informal basis (a couple hours) or a formal NRA Basic Pistol class. I'm in the Boston, MA area. I understand this might not be possible. But if you can arrange it, either with me or someone else, it would be to your benefit. You might also consider purchasing from the NRA their Basic Pistol Marksmanship booklet. They also have some videos as well. These cover the basics of operating revolvers and pistols, and also cover the terminology.

I agree with the previous posters who explained just how infuriating it is when we read gross technical errors in print. My favorite is one that I've seen in the Boston Globe recently, in articles about a police shooting, where the reporter refered to the "officer's semi-automatic service revolver." First, the officer was carrying a semi-automatic pistol, not revolver. Second, while there actually is a semi-automatic revolver (Mateba, made in Italy), it is a very rare and unique item, one that I'm willing to be has never been issued by a US law enforcement agency.

Other typical mistakes include:

1) calling a magazine a clip. Most semi-automatic pistols (and rifles as well) use a magazine. Magazines have springs. Clips do not have springs. Clips were used to load military bolt action rifles (the old Enfield bolt action rifle, for example, or the US M1 Garand from WWII).

2) calling a loaded cartridge a bullet. As one poster described above, the bullet is only the projectile; the cartridge consists of bullet, powder, primer, and case.

3) Operating a "safety" on guns that don't have safeties. As described above, very few revolvers have manually operated safeties. Most police agencies in the US are now issuing service pistols that do not have manually operated safeties as well.

4) Racking the slide on a semi-automatic pistol unnecessarily (particularly seen in Hollywood movies). The slide is typically only operated manually to load the first round. After each shot, the slide will move to the rear, extracting the spent casing, and then slide forward again, chambering the next round. On most pistols, the slide will lock to the rear after the last round in the magazine is fired. Operating the slide manually when the gun already has a round in the chamber will simply eject a live round from the gun, and drop it on the floor.

Oh, another thing. Felt recoil is very subjective and depends a great deal on how the gun fits in your hand. As mentioned above, during a very tense moment, you might not feel the recoil. That said, smaller lighter guns generally recoil harder than larger, heavier guns, all things being equal. I have a S&W Model 642, which is an aluminum framed .38 Spcl snubnose revolver. It weights 15 oz. and just plain hurts when I shoot 158 gr. +P ammunition. Firing the same ammunition out of my large S&W Model 66, a medium framed .357 Magnum doesn't hurt at all.

m1911
 
To add a tiny bit more data to the discussion on cocking a double-action revolver...

Note that the muscles that stabilize the handgun for aiming are the wrist and forearm muscles. Some of those muscles must move in order to pull the trigger. That's why it's difficult for novices to shoot a handgun accurately. The longer and harder the trigger pull is, the more likely it is that the act of pulling the trigger will throw off the point of aim.

As noted earlier, a double-action handgun (either revolver or semi-auto) can either be fired by thumb-cocking the hammer (which will give a short, light trigger pull) or, if time/circumstances do not permit, by just pulling the trigger, which will have a longer stroke and a harder pull in order to cock the hammer as well as release the sear. This longer, harder double-action trigger stroke is more likely to disrupt aim.

That's why folks who want the most accurate shot, and have the time to do so, will thumb-cock the hammer to get the easier trigger pull.

Folks who train well can operate the longer, harder double-action trigger as accurately as they can the shorter, easier single-action pull. However, for most shooters, and especially untrained shooters, using the double-action trigger pull will reduce accuracy significantly.

When I was learning, I would always "pull" a double-action shot down and to the left (or was it up and to the right? I can't remember.)
 
Wow!

This is all really helpful stuff. First off, I take the point made by Dick, Doc and Jim that it's important to get the descriptions right - in fact I plan to tap the Full Auto forum next to make sure I don't stray too far from the truth on an HK MP5 that also features in the piece I'm writing.

David, many thanks for the detailed info. The Colt Detective Special looks about right for my purposes. I have a couple more questions: how much does it weigh and is the name of the gun written anywhere on it? (ps: I don't think I'll risk my rather frail table with a big book, but I'll try to imagine the sound and I'll definitely check out your work!)

Sam, good suggestion about getting in touch with the local Taiwanese police. They are a bit uptight, but it is certainly worth a try at least visiting a training facility.

Chad and M1911, if I get a chance, I'd love to visit the States and it would be great to tap the TFL expertise. This year looks tricky though... However, if it looks like the piece I'm writing might get published, then that will certainly be an incentive. Cambodia appears to be a closer alternative for gun range experience.

It's a bit off the subject of revolvers, but I was interested in what M1911 said about racking the slide on a semi-automatic. Would you normally carry a semi-automatic with the first round loaded? Is that more dangerous than waiting until you decide to use the gun and then racking the slide?

Also, does anyone remember more details about the thread on stupid gun mistakes in books that David mentioned? I couldn't find it using search.

Once again, thanks for all this help. I really appreciate it.
 
"It's a bit off the subject of revolvers, but I was interested in what M1911 said about racking the slide on a semi-automatic. Would you normally carry a semi-automatic with the first round loaded? Is that more dangerous than waiting until you decide to use the gun and then racking the slide?"

This is a topic that comes up frequently on TFL. Most knowledgeable gun owners will tell you that a Colt model 1911 or its variants are made to be carried with a round in the chamber, the hammer cocked and the thumb safety (which keeps the hammer from falling) in the safe position. This assumes that the gun is being carried in a holster that covers the trigger. To accidentally discharge the gun while it is carried that way, one would have to disengage the thumb (hammer) safety lever, have something press on the grip safety that blocks the trigger, and simultaneously pull the trigger. So far, no one has been able to document a case where a 1911 carried "cocked and locked," as this type of carry is often referred to, has discharged on its own.

The advantage to carrying this way is speed, should the need arise to draw the weapon. One need only draw the gun, click off the thumb safety and put the finger on the trigger to be ready to fire. Racking the slide takes longer and, in a tense situation, it is possible to not rack the slide fully, the result being that there is no round chambered.

Good luck on getting information on an HK MP5. That is a whole new can of worms.

Dick
 
mure

Some stuff I gleaned from a magazine article years ago. This won't really give you a true feeling for the sound but it may help put it in perspective. The range of human hearing is 0-120 decibels. The level of initial discomfort is about 115 dB, but you can suffer temporary or permanent hearing loss as low as 95dB. Even the smallest common caliber, .22 Long Rifle, is 106 dB from a 4" revolver. The pain threshold is 140 dB, but you get instant permanent damage at 130 dB and up. Barrel length, caliber, type of gun and the relative openness of the area all have an effect. All else being equal, a revolver is louder than a semi-auto because of the side-blast (gas escapes between the front of the cylinder and back of the barrel) in addition to muzzle blast. A PMC Starfire .38 Spl +P fired from a 4" revolver in an open field is about 117 dB. The same round from a 1.9" "snubby" barrel is 120.5 dB; while the same round from a 6" barrel is 116.5 dB. The same round fired in the 4" gun in a 3-car garage is 129 dB; in a bedroom 131 dB; and inside a car 137 dB. (People don't remember it being loud though. I know a woman who had a negligent discharge inside a small car with a .380 that went through her windshield. She doesn't remember it being loud at all.)

To give some common reference points:

70 dB - vacuum cleaner
80 dB - garbage disposal
90 dB - pneumatic drill
100 dB - power lawn mower
110 dB - automobile horn
120 dB - propeller airplane
130 dB - jet take-off or 50 hp siren
140 dB - large power amplifier
150 dB - stun grenade
160 dB - 7.62mm NATO or .223 rifle

With regard to flash, semi-auto's are better (no side blast); longer barrel is better; larger caliber is better. But powder type makes a big difference, even within the same caliber. You can get 230-gr .45 ACP rounds that have a lot of flash and other 230-gr .45 ACP rounds that have very little.

And, for what it's worth, I would carry a single-action semi-auto 1911-pattern .45 with a round in the chamber, the hammer cocked, and the safety on. A double action semi-auto, I would have a round in the chamber and the hammer decocked. I would not carry a semi-auto without a round in the chamber.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.
 
mure:

Most folks who carry semi-automatic pistols, whether they are law enforcement or private individuals, carry them with a round in the chamber. There are typically a number of internal devices that will prevent a pistol from discharging unless the trigger is pulled. Guns don't just go off -- they go off because someone was messing with them (specifically, loaded them and pulled the trigger). A gun in a holster which covers the trigger guard is quite safe. Care must be exercised when drawing and reholstering the gun, as that is a time when many negligent discharges occur.

The same is true of revolvers with a modern design. With most modern revolvers or pistols, if you drop the gun, it will not go off. That is not true of the old Colt Single Action Army, where the firing pin was simply an extension of the hammer and would rest on the primer of a cartridge, if you had the hammer resting on a full chamber. If a Single Action Army falls on the hammer, then there is a chance of it going off if the chamber under the hammer is loaded.

So cowboys carried their old Colts with the hammer down on an empty chamber (thus only having 5 shots, instead of 6). The drill on those old guns was to load one chamber, skip a chamber, load 4 chambers, pull the hammer to full cock, and then lower the hammer. This would put the hammer on an empty chamber.

Modern revolvers are usually carried with all chambers full, so you only need to draw them and pull the trigger in order to fire.

I'm not a fan of carrying a semi-auto chamber empty. The problem is that if you need a gun, you NEED IT RIGHT NOW! It is true that you can charge the chamber quickly from the draw if you practice it. But that is only true if you have two hands available to do so, and your weak hand might be otherwise occupied. For example, you might be using your weak hand to fend off the attacker, or to push a loved one to cover. There are techniques to charge the chamber single-handedly (e.g., hook your rear sight on your belt and push forward, or catch the slide behind the crook of your knee), but they are slow and awkward.

There's also always a risk that you will have a feed failure with a semi-automatic. Probably every one of us has, at one time or another, tried to charge the chamber of a semi-automatic pistol and had the slide end up not fully closed, with the cartridge part way into the chamber. (Note, this can also happen while firing a shot with a semi-automatic pistol.) There is a procedure to deal with this quickly, but if you were carrying chamber full, at least you would have gotten one shot off...

Note that there is a school of thought promotes chamber empty carry. This appears mostly to come from Israel, where it is my understanding that civilians are required by law to carry chamber empty. And there certainly are folks in the US who carry chamber empty. But probably all significant law enforcement organizations in the US and all the major civilian training academies teach chamber full.

M1911
 
Monkeyleg:

While I'm certainly a proponent of carrying a 1911 either condition 1 or condition 3 (preferably condition 1), I don't think the question was posed specifically towards 1911s. Many (most?) police officers in the US carry Glocks and do so chamber full.

I carry chamber full, and that's true whether I'm carrying a 1911, a Kahr, a Glock, a Sig, a CZ, etc.

M1911
 
Mure,

You asked:
The Colt Detective Special looks about right for my purposes. I have a couple more questions: how much does it weigh and is the name of the gun written anywhere on it?
Click to expand...

This should help:

-------------------
Colt 38 Detective Special:
A light frame double action revolver from Colt that is available in the .38 special rounds.

The Colt 38 DS is blue steel and the Colt 38 DS-II is matte stainless steel. The barrel length is 2 inches in length and is considered a snub nose. The grips and stock are black composite. The revolver has a 6 shot cylinder. The weapon comes standard with ramp fron and notch rear sights. The revolver is available with a bobbed hammer

Weight: 1.3 lbs (1.1 kg) empty.
Caliber: .38 Special
Barrel Length: 2 inch (5.1 cm).
Action: Double Action.
Range: 70 ft (21 m).
Cylinder: 6 rounds .
Cost: $ 408.
Made in: America.
Special: General Purpose .38 Revolver, Easily Concealed, and is available with a bobbed hammer.
-----------------

This is from the Netbook of Modern Firearms at:

http://members.tripod.com/~Slippery_Jim/Firearms.htm#pistol

As for markings, the left side of the barrel should be marked:

COLT .38 DS
- .38 Special Ctg -



PS: If you do read the fiction on my web site, please leave comments in the guest book.
 
Great info, everyone.

The only thing I might add is that the sound of a gunshot is very, very similar to a small firecracker going off. Keep in mind that most firecrackers are heard from a "safe distance" and a gun is fired from arm's length. Being arms length away from a small firecracker would give you a pretty good indic, err... nevermind :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top