Need your help with a graduation gift for my son

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Bfry012

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To give you a quick background: My son will be graduating high school this year. He loves to shoot trap,sporting clays and skeet. He plans on shooting for the college club team next year. He currently shoots a Browning BPS 12g currently. I would like to present him with a gun that should last a lifetime, although I'm not sure I can afford it. I would like to spend around 1,000. He really likes shooting my Red Label which has 26" barrels. Which leads me to another question what length barrel would you get? I know he wants an O/U. There is a Franchi diamond at Dicks for $875. Thanks for your help
 
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What I consider to be an all purpose shotgun - in an Over Under is a gun, probably 12ga, that is around 8 1/2 lbs with 30" barrels. The weight is a happy medium between light field guns ...and real heavy Trap guns. The 30" barrels - give you a good long sight plane ..and it keeps the gun from being "whippy" ...

But to a big extent - it depends on his build / and what he finds balanced / with enough weight to give him a solid and clean follow-thru.
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Shooting for a team is a different thing...and a lot of collegiate teams wil have some pretty high end guns - whether its Skeet, International Skeet, Trap ...etc ....but Kolar, Krieghoff, Perazzi and Blaser will all be represented there ...for good long term guns ( lifetime guns ) that will easily handle 500,000 to 1 million shells without much, if anything, happening ...but to play in that arena - means $ 7,500 - $ 25,000 ....for new guns.
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On the lower end of production guns ...Browning and Beretta give you a lot of gun for the money ...guns like the Browning, Citori, XS Skeet model with 3" barrels are good solid long term guns ...but they're just not high end competition guns. But it is a gun he can have for a lifetime - or longer.../ easily 250,000 - 500,000 shell guns....but the XS Skeet model is retailing new for around $ 3,000 now.... I have a lot of Browning O/U's ( XS Skeet models, XT models, BT-100, etc ) and some BPS's as well ...and they're very solid guns ...
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The next tier of guns ...Ruger ...or whatever ...a lot of them are made in Turkey these days ....may be decent guns, maybe not ...25,000 shell guns ...probably ...but 100,000 - no, probably not. Serviceable guns ..but some of them have a lot of issues ...ribs, triggers, stocks cracking, barrel regulation issues, etc ...Franchi, Mossberg, Stoeger, etc ...are in that category ...where you can't tell by looking at them. But they just are not "lifetime" guns ...or good durable serious competition guns...
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In the $ 800 price range ...honestly, I'd look at a semi-auto like the Browning Silver series ...for $ 750 - $ 900 probably ...for a gun that will stand up long term. Let him get to school - see if he can compete and make the team ....and see what kind of guns they're shooting / they may have guns dontated for the team to use from Alumni, etc ...so don't be in a hurry to get him a gun for competition - I think its a mistake.

And the lower end O/U's ....for a young guy that may be shooting 10 - 30 boxes a week ...isn't going to hold up too long / or meet his needs very well.

If I was picking a production grade "Trap" gun ....and a versatile gun for doubles, continental or trap singles...I'd go with a Browning Citori XT with 32" barrels as a good long term gun. The XT Gold - comes with a GraCoil system on it, etc ...but again its price point is pretty high.../ but the XT is not a very good Skeet or Sporting Clays gun at around 10 lbs ...its just too "clumsy" for hard left to right targets, in my view.
 
Big Jim --

Good information, thanks

Ruger is still all US right? Just asking. They really do not hold up? Bummer as it would be nice to have a good, USA made gun at a reasonable price point.

What are the defining features that make the higher end guns last longer / better with high round counts?
 
Thanks Jim

I am leaning toward getting him the lower end Citori. I know for a fact he wants an o/u. For about $1500 I believe it is probably they best gun for the money in an o/u. Would you agree? Thanks again your input was awesome!
 
Thanks - and yes, there is a lot to picking a new gun ...besides just the name. I discuss Browning O/U's a lot ...because I know more about them than the Beretta line / but its because the Browning Citori line ( some of them ) fit me - where the Berettas do not. I own about a dozen Citori's ...and I've figured this "Fit" issue out ...with some trial and error ..and some help from knowledgeable guys...in the last 15 yrs...( and I made some expensive mistakes - buying guns that didn't fit / even Citori's).
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As far as I can tell, all the Rugers are made in Turkey now...which is sad.../but its a little hard to get detail info on them.
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A lower end Citori - like the Citori Lightning ...is a very solid gun. All of the guns in the Citori line - use the same barrel lock up / and today all have the newer backbored machining of the barrels ...and all use the newer Invector Plus screw in changeable choke systems...and use the same inertia trigger systems. But the stock dimensions ( drop at comb, drop at heel and length of pull are a little different )...

http://www.browning.com/products/ca...type_id=461&content=citori-lightning-firearms

The basic Lightning model lists new for $ 1990 ...but often sells new for around $ 1,500... in 12ga, 3" chambers, 8 lbs / 2 1/2" drop at heel, 1 5/8" drop at comb and 14 1/4" length of pull - and in a grade I or II stock ...so the question is, what does he need for "fit"...but its an affordable gun / and a solid long term gun.
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As I look at the Citori line of guns - what I see are: ( 28 models)

In the lightning series / Hunter series basically the same gun - lightning, white lightning, midas satin, satin hunter, white satin hunter... list $ 1599 - $2,000. Angled comb / lots of drop at comb and heel ...3" and some with 3 1/2 " chambers ..( considered field guns - primarily because of the angled combs). There are 5 guns in that series...[/SIZE]Higher end Field guns ...Lightning Grade IV's to grade VII's ...and the Heritage. $ 3,500 - $ 5,600 / but mechanically about the same gun as the Lightning series ...nicer stocks..some with 2 3/4" chambers / Heritage only available in 28ga as an example... 4 guns in that series ).. ( total of 9 models ).

625 Series .... a lot of drop at comb and heel ...list prices are in the $ 3,700 - $ 4,700 range. Nice guns ... (6 guns in that series...)

XT- Trap ----great Trap guns ...parallel comb guns ( 6 Guns in that series).... $ 3,000 - $ 5,700 list but $3,400 for adj comb model which is most versatile and a very good gun for Trap.

XS - Skeet models. A very good all around gun / parallel combs ...good all around gun ...list price is $ 3,200 - $ 3,400 / the adj comb is the most versatile. It happens to be my bird gun, skeet gun and sporting clays gun. I like it a lot in 12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410 ...( 28ga and .410 are special order only on this model - but available at same price as the 20ga / built on the 20ga receiver). (2 guns here...)

XS Special-- a hybrid ...parallel comb - list price is $ 3,600 ..(2 guns here)...

Feather series...a lighter option / for a field gun ..similar to lightning series ..and $ 2,500 - $4,000
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So 28 models .....

many in the Lightning - field spec type mold ...and $ 1,500 - $ 5,000

some dressed up "field guns" --- like the 625 ...

some specialty "Target" guns ....XS Skeet and XT Trap ...
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Browning marketing dept ...has run amuk a little in my view ...and it confuses the daylights out of people ( but so have most companies ).... You don't need a "sporting gun" to shoot sporting clays ../ or a skeet gun to shoot skeet ...but you really need a Trap gun to shoot Trap seriously ...( so it hits high enough to hit a rising target as you float it ) ...

I maintain that the parallel comb guns --- will fit 99.9% of the shooters out there ...( XS Skeet, XT Trap or XS Special models ) ....and have all the adjustment built into the guns / if you go with an adjustable comb option. They aren't fancy guns / they're solid, serviceable guns ...that "Fit" and will last 250,000 shells or more easily ...( XS Skeet, XT Trap or XS Special ).

Are the Lightning series good guns - sure / I have a few of them ...but they don't fit 75% of the shooters that buy them without some significant stock modifications - which might be $ 50 - $ 1,500 to fix... / but in terms of a gift - they are a solid gun ...and I've bought a few of them used ---cleaned them up / refinished the stocks, etc ...and I'm keeping them to give to the grandkids when they turn 16 or so .../ all kids grow so much between 12 and 25 --- its hard to pick a long term gun for them ...but none of the Browning Citori's mechanically - will be a short term gun. They're good gifts ...but not great "Target grade guns".

If I was a serious competiton shooter these days ...I would look seriously as the options from Blaser - or Krieghoff or Kolar ...maybe Perazzi. All 4 are very good guns ...but a little out of the price range as a gift for a young shooter in my opinion.
 
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Again outstanding input Jim

We have a gun show this weekend in Louisville I plan on going but really don't know what to look for in a used gun except the visual condition. I'm sure it will be a learning experience wish me luck
 
I hope your shows are better than the ones here. I went to one looking for a shotgun, and othe than HD guns, and a few Browning A5s for $1000 that looked pretty beat up, there were no real options.
I would suggest that you look on Armslist.com or gunbroker if you are thinking of buying pre-owned. You can sometimes find what you are looking for in new with tags condition. I picked up a 12 ga Ducks Unlimted 390 with tags on the trigger for less than the cost of a 3901 at the gun store. Same story with a 390 20 ga synthetic. Just don't be in a hurry.
 
No Billly ...I can't ...:D ...( ....but the good news is my boys both married well, so my grandkids won't be ugly and stupid ...:D ... and both boys look like me ..) ...2 boys ( and 2 stepkids), and 10 grandkids now, so I have enough problems...but my daughter-in-laws think I'm hysterical ...

There are a lot of good used guns out there...but you do have to look carefully...and know what you're looking at.

I would go to a local store that deals in a lot of used shotguns ...both junk and some good ones ...and talk to them / how to check a gun / the differences in some of the models - especially if you find a model that is no longer in the current catalog / educate yourself - so you don't get sucked into a bad deal at the gunshow.

But things I check on a used gun:
a. appearance - scratches ...any galling in the metal / showing abuse.
b. barrel appearance ...scoring, dirty, etc ...
c. serial numbers matching ...barrel, receiver, forend...
d. ask the seller if the stock has ever been removed.. ( has it been shot in the rain / may be some rust inside receiver that you can't see ) .. Some guys never remove a stock / guys like me remove them at least every 6 months or anytime I shoot in heavy weather.
e. chamber length, gague, chokes if fixed or screw in, etc ..just making sure what it is.
f. have a tape measure with you to check length of pull and barrel length.
g. If it has screw in chokes ...how many are there ..what are they ...take the chokes out to check the threads inside the barrel. Is it a factory job on the screw in chokes ..or was it done in aftermarket ( if aftermarket - who did it ) ..and if its not Briley Mfg, I'd pass on it !

my big issues....( if I can't get the chokes out, I pass....it shows neglect), if the gun shows any abuse ( metal galling, I pass, shows neglect), if the gun is really dirty ( I pass, becuase it irritates me that someone has the guts to try and sell a dirty gun ), if there is any rust on it ( I pass).

Wood can be sanded and refinished ...re-bluing barrels not so much ...and repairing loose hinge pins, loose take down levers, loose ribs can be expensive. The only used guns, in general, that I'd consider because they're work horses ...are Beretta or Browning...too many other guns may have issues ..and someone may be pawning their issues off on you.
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But because I shoot Browning O/U's and have figured out their models ...I'll tell you what I would look for in a used Browning Citori ( not that the Browning Cynergy or the Berettas are bad guns ...I just don't know that much about them )...too many guns out there / and I'm getting older and can't remember much of anything...

A used Citori Lightning ...made in mid 80's thru 1995 or so will have the old screw in Invector chokes ...they're a good value. A new one sold in 1988 for $ 750 in 12ga and 28" barrels. Today - with some light scratches ..it's a $1,000 gun for the most part if its in very good shape ...especially if they have several chokes with it, a case, etc. New ones list $ 1990 / sell for around $ 1,500. I'd pass on a gun with 26" barrels...because they're too short in my hands.

Used Browning Citori XT - 12ga, 32" barrels is a good buy if you find one in good shape with the adj comb. New they're list is $ 3,390 selling for around $3,000. A good clean used gun / still pretty tight ...$ 2,000 - $ 2,500. Its a plus if they have extra chokes, a hard case and a Gra-Coil installed / but only if I want a dedicated "Trap" gun. I'd pass on a gun in 30" ...because I like the heavier and longer version in a Trap gun.

Used Browning XS-Skeet - 12ga, 30" barrels is a good buy if it has adj comb again ...New they're list is $ 3,600 selling for around $ 3,200 or so .../ extra chokes, hard case, etc - used they're $ 2,000 - $ 2,500 again if they're pretty tight... This is my choice for a good all around - do everything gun. 28" guns are fine / I prefer the 30" in this gun ( in 12ga or 29, 28 or .410 )..

Not great photos but ...here are my XS Skeet models...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62169&d=1281543688
From top to bottom ---12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410...the 12ga is my primary sporting, skeet, and upland bird gun ...has at least 250,000 shells thru it by now ( it was new in about 2000 ). The 20ga and 28ga ...both have easily 150,000 shells thru them now ...the .410 maybe 10,000 ...( all have a few scratches / but still very tight / and I take care of them).

My pair of XT's ...both 32", 12ga...one with a Gra Coil on it / darker one is a stock gun ...the honey colored one is an upgraded stock ( grade VI or so )..that I bought used a few years ago for under $ 3K in a pawn shop of all places. But nothing wrong with the standard grade stock gun..
http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=67933&d=1299018573

good luck in your search .../ and no matter what ...have some fun with the process ! While many of us obsess over just the right gun ...the kid will like whatever you buy ! I sure wasn't carrying around a $3,000 shotgun when I was 18 yrs old ...
 
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Thanks...

Just trying to help the guy / or keep him from making the same mistakes I did ...buying guns that didn't fit ...and I wasted $ 3,000 ...and passing on stuff that other experienced shooters have helped me learn over the years.

or at least I hope it helps ( they were pretty long responses).
 
Target Grade?

BigJim. What do you mean by Citori's not being target grade guns? The term used to confuse me, but I think I now understand. Are you using the term as a synonym for competition grade?
 
Yes, I'm using the term Target Grade ...loosely ...but in general, I mean it to apply to a gun ...that will give you at least a 500,000 shell usage without any major issues. But this is my terminology ...not necessarily shared by everyone ...

Many amateur competition shooters / or serious casual shooters..will shoot 20,000 - 25,000 shells a year thru a primary gun ...so when I use the term "Target Gun" ...it would apply to a gun that will give that kind of usage for 20+ years / maybe longer.

Many Beretta and Browning O/U's will give you that kind of usage...so I don't mean to say that a Browning or Beretta is not a Target Grade gun - they are in my opinion / and some of their guns are marketed as pretty serious competition guns ( like Browning XS Skeet model, or Browning XT Trap model ) ...now while I think Perazzi, Blaser, Kolar and Krieghoff are better long terms guns than most of the Beretta or Browning lines ...I don't think they're 10 times better either. Many of the higher end Berettas and Browning Citoris may give 1 Million shell life with no issues ...( guns in the $ 3,000 -
$ 5,000 price ranges mostly )...

I don't mean the term "target" gun to be an elite gun either ...or the term "Field gun" to mean its not a durable gun ...the usage these days ( with sporting clays being so popular ) has many guns used for competiton being configured more like "Field guns" ..than traditional competiton guns ...and the lines get blurred a lot.

I use the Browning XS Skeet models - with adj parallel combs as "field guns" and hunt upland birds with them ( because they fit me - so I shoot them well) ...and the fact that the XS Skeet models only come in 2 3/4" chambers doesn't bother me ( I know I can't shoot 3" or 3 1/2" shells in them ). So Browning markets the XS Skeet model ---as a Skeet target grade gun ...even though guys like me shoot it for Sporting Clays, Skeet, and some upland bird hunting.

Browning has models in their Citori line - like the 625 sporting with 2 3/4" chambers ...listing at $ 3,700 and the 625 Field model with 3" chambers listing for $ 2,600 -- with less fancy wood, etc on it.

So over the years - companies like Browning - have generally put 3" or 3 1/2" chambers on what they consider to be their "Field use" guns / and 2 3/4" chambers on what they consider to be their "target use" guns....

But unlike the shell options we had in the 60's and 70's ...today, there are a lot of options for guns chambered in 2 3/4" or 3" ...and the screw in choke systems of today ..mean we can use one gun for Skeet, and sporting ...and hunting ...taking it from an open Cyclinder choke ...to a Full choke if we want ..and everything in between vs when I grew up in the 50's ...we had a "duck" gun, a "goose gun", a "grouse" gun, a "pheasant" gun ...all with fixed chokes ...and barrel lengths that made sense for the bird we intended to hunt with it ....and only the rich kids ...shot "Skeet" ...or had "target" guns.

So today the lines are blurred ....except in terms of chamber length ...and durability. My grandfather as an example ...hunted ducks primarily in the 50's ...and maybe shot 3 boxes of shells a year - and he killed and we ate at least 60 - 70 ducks a year that he killed ... (heck, last week alone, I shot 12 boxes in 2 days at my local club on Skeet and some 5 stand)...and while he knew about shooting "skeet" it never made any sense to him / he thought it was a waste of good money....

So "field" gun vs "target" gun ...is a little blurry these days../ but that's how I look at it...
 
The Beretta 686 Sporting is a good multi purpose gun that sells for about $1500. I see alot of SCTP and SCYSF shooters using those.
 
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