Jim Watson wrote:
A water cooled fixed mount shotgun, wow.
Yep. Don't forget they would be twin actions and semi auto shotguns with both barrels in the same water jacket, being crank fired at a high rate of speed. Insane? Of course!
Bill Akins wrote:
Someone told me a Win model 50 might fit the bill. I don't know anything about the Win mod 50, are they correct?
Jim Watson wrote:
The Winchester Model 50 is recoil operated but the recoiling element is a sub-chamber that moves back and forth in the breech end of the barrel proper. So there is no external movement of the barrel, no need for the whole gun to recoil, no need to work around a gas port.
See the owner's manual at:
http://stevespages.com/pdf/winchester_59.pdf
That is for the Model 59 which is mechanically the same but for the innovative fiberglass barrel.
I think it might eventually pack it in because of slow heat transfer from chamber to barrel to water jacket, but it ought to run long enough for your "proof of concept."
Thanks for that info on the Win model 50 Jim. I appreciate it. It might just be what I'm looking for with your description of the barrel not moving at all and the sub chamber only moving a bit at the breech end of the barrel. I'll check out the owners manual you provided and thanks for providing that. In case the manual doesn't show it, how far would you say the sub chamber goes forward of the breech? Also, does the sub chamber go totally inside the barrel so that a water jacket could be put on the barrel OVER the sub chamber? Both of those questions are important to me due to water jacket cooling concerns, since I'd like to water jacket the barrel as far back as possible to cover almost to the breech.
(Later note after reading the manual, yes the sub chamber goes inside the barrel, so yes I can cover the barrel with the water jacket where the sub chamber goes, so that the entire barrel is water jacket cooled). Hoo rah, sounds like I found out which shotgun actions I need.
Now I'm disgusted cause I have a few of them I was and am watching in Gunbroker and one of the mod 50's just sold for the low price of $139.00 just yesterday, and of course TODAY I find out it's the action I need and I should have bid on it. Oh well. On to the next one.
Jim Watson wrote:
Are you going to build from scratch on that system or cut up a production model shotgun? If the latter, what do you plan to do about the magazine?
Modifying a sporting repeating shotgun for military use requires accommodating the tube magazine. Squeezing in a water jacket will add to the hassle.
Barnbwt wrote:
If you don't mind my nosey-ness, what's this for? Just for fun, or do you have a reality show or something? (I kid, this thing just seems right up Red Jacket's alley is all ). Honestly, a minitature Oerlikon or similarly bad-ass anti-aircraft gun that runs on (much cheaper) shot shells would be a pretty cool toy
Fellas, it will look a good deal like this twin action, twin barrel, 1879 Gardner gun photo and hopper fed like that too, only in 12 gauge instead of 45-70 and firing much faster since it is semi auto and crank fired as opposed to the totally manual crank fired Gardner which fires much slower. The Gardner was the very first known manufactured water cooled gun in history. The Gardner was made in 1, 2, and 5 barrel versions. I expect my twin 12 gauge to be devastating firepower with two semi auto shotguns being crank fired either sequentially or simultaneously (depending on how I set the crank cam on the triggers). Especially devastating if crank fired simultaneously with both barrels firing at the same time. I can get six shots per revolution and possibly eight if I build the crank fire cam correctly. Six for sure, eight possibly. (But I don't want to overcrank the guns faster than they can operate which is easily done and you have to slow down cranking a bit, learned that with my 10/22 crankfires.
Can you imagine rapidly crank firing out that kind of twin 12 gauge shotgun firepower? For each 00 buckshot, that's nine 33 caliber pellets going out. A literal wall of lead. You could mow fields with it. Lol. I get a good rate of crank fire out of my 10/22 crank fires and they are all only single barrel. Twin action/barrels will be a hoot! Heavy though, what with twin shotguns and a heavy steel fake receiver housing and ammo hopper and ammo and other sundry parts, not to mention the mount/tripod, but that's okay, I need the weight to soak up recoil.
A poster asked me if I didn't have the gun or its barrel moving rearward if wouldn't that recoil the gun to death? As you can see in the above photo, the Gardner was hard mounted and its barrels did not reciprocate. All its recoil was transferred into its housing and its mount and it didn't recoil to death.
I could use a recoiling barrel but would prefer not to. Because I see how the front glands on the water jacket of moving barrel machine guns leak a bit, plus you have to machine a groove into the barrel for a packing gland and also use a bushing in the water jacket. And if you tighten the bushing down upon the gland too much to create a better water seal, it will cause friction and impede the operation of the gun. So it is common to see a moving barrel 1917 water cooled Browning leaking when firing when the barrel is moving back and forth in the front bushing.
The Gardner gun didn't have moving barrels. Neither do my other crank fire inventions. I have quite a bit of experience in building something like this since I have built three prototypes of air cooled and water cooled fake receiver dress up kits for the Ruger 10/22 that look like Browning air cooled and truly water cooled machine guns, that are crank fired. My final third prototype is quickly convertible from air to water cooled in just a minute. So it can be both versions. Here's a few pics. I finally have the funds to finance buying the two shotguns and fabricating the fake receiver and water jacket hopefully using Win mod 50's that you described if they work out to what I need, since I have been unable to find anything else that is available that fits that description. I've been planning on doing this for quite some time and I want to get it done, but I need to make sure I get the correct two shotguns to do it with. These are my three prototypes and is what I want to build only on a larger scale and in double barrel using two semi auto shotguns that will be hopper fed and triggers connected for crank firing like a Gardner or Gatling.
You can see a slideshow of my first two prototypes here. The (1st prototype) air cooled one is ONLY able to be air cooled. The (2nd prototype) water cooled one is ONLY able to be water cooled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F7f17m8TJM&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL194C25D49F70EA08
Crank fire attachment not installed on trigger in three below pics, (but it is installed now). My third and final prototype is able to be convertible so it can either be air cooled like this.....
Or quickly converted in just a minute to truly water cooled like this....
I'm inverting the shotguns so I can omit their tube feeds and gravity hopper feed them instead. With the heat they will generate with a high capacity hopper feed, I won't be making an air cooled version since it would overheat much too quickly. They will be water cooled only.
The only thing holding me back is making sure I know the correct model shotguns to buy for this application. No sense wasting money if they aren't correct for the application. Now you fellas know why I need a semi automatic shotgun that the barrel doesn't move on. I want to easily fit a water jacket onto the barrels just like I did the STATIONARY barrels on two my three crank fire Ruger 10/22 prototypes. Which said 10/22's by the way, aren't modified in any way. I worked my fake receiver, barrel shroud, and water jacket around the existing design without any modifications to the 10/22 whatsoever.
They can be removed from my fake receiver dress up stocks and placed back in a factory Ruger stock if desired. No mods at all. Just fabrication all around the existing action and barrel. Sorry, I forgot. One mod. The end of the barrel is threaded 1/2x28tpi to screw on the flash hider which also secures the front O ring that seals the front of the water jacket. The rear of the water jacket has an angled cut that forces another O ring into it and at the same time forces that O ring even tighter to the barrel via the angled cut in the rear of the water jacket, and that O ring is also pressed against a flat plate on the front of the fake receiver which creates a very effective water seal at the rear of the water jacket. That's the same way I want the water jacket to seal on the shotguns. So I need them to have stationary barrels.
It's time now for me to do the same thing only in twin action double barrel 12 gauge scale. But the guns have to be the right ones for the job and that's why I was asking for advice about what semi auto shotguns do not use a moving barrel and that can operate while being totally motionless and braced inside a fake receiver housing. So far from Jim Watson's description, the Win mod 50 seems like the best choice, in fact the ONLY choice as far as I can tell. Too bad I can't use a more currently produced shotgun for this. But at least the Win mod 50 is still available to have used.
Now you can better understand what it is I'm wanting to build. It will of course not look as much like my Ruger 10/22 crank fires, but will look a great deal like the double barrel, water cooled, Gardner gun pictured earlier in this post. It will either have a funnel like hopper feed that feeds both guns with the sights being in the middle cut out of the feed, or it will have twin vertical feeds over each gun's receiver. I haven't decided yet.
And before anyone asks, yes it is legal. It's a crank fire just like a Gardner or Gatling, just like my Ruger 10/22's. Actually, legally the entire housing is just a "stock" under the law. And it will be at least 26 inches in length, probably way more, with at least an 18 inch barrel, again probably way more, and is intended exclusively for heavy mount or heavy tripod use...naturally. Skeet shooting anyone?
I'm going to be sixty in October, and I just found out a few days ago the results of the MRI on my spine from the surgeon, that I have a tumor/cist in my spine that has pressed down by HALF my sciatic nerve causing severe pain and I am only vertical because of the steroids the doc has me on to reduce the swelling. I go in for surgery to remove it on tuesday and will be out of commission for a month to heal up. So I'm feeling my age and recognize that if I don't get some of my designs done
NOW, while I still have a few good years left, I might never get them done. So I'm getting very serious about doing this while I still can, and can have some fun with it, before I get too old to lug something like this around to the range. Know what I mean some of you guys my age?
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