Need help with hand loads!

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DTOM47

Inactive
Hey guys I'm new to this forum and could use some help. Hopfully this is in the right spot. So I loaded up the following two recipes and they both had faliure to cycle in my sr9 and sr9c (both have had 200-300 rds through them). Have never had a single problem with a variety of factory ammo. I got the load data from accurate arms website. I used Rainier data for the 115 gr. And Barry's data for the 124. I should note I am using a lee balance scale, and auto disk loader but was getting (from what I can tell) consistant drops. Thanks guys!

Xtreme 115gr RN, AA#5 5.4 gr, OAL 1.140, very light crimp, CCI primer.

And....

Xtreme 124gr RN, AA#5 5.7 gr, OAL 1.163, very light crimp, CCI primer

Is it crimp, OAL, or amount of powder....? :confused:
 
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The load data looks fine. The 1.163 is listed as 1.160 in the book but your 1.163 is fine.
Did they kerplunk in the chamber? The bullets are .356 but should work fine. Were the factory rounds RN types? Do you recall their OAL? Did you keep the ones that jammed? Did you re-measure them for any changes? When you say, failed to cycle, can you offer a little more description? Did the perceived recoil feel normal? Did they sound about right? When you say light crimp, if measure the diameter of the bullet, and the diameter of the case just by the bullet, what are the measurements? When you pull one of those bullets, do you see a compression any different than if you pulled a factory bullet?
 
Crimp should leave the case mouth over the bullet at between 0.373" and 0.380". 0.3765" is the middle, so use your caliper to set the crimp to target that middle value so tolerance has some wiggle room from round to round.

Underloading is likely not getting your slides all the way back so they don't have full runup to the base of the cartridge in the magazine. That can cause failure to strip and feed completely. This is much more of a problem in light, short barrel guns than in 1911's or larger guns because the light gun's recoil springs have to be stiffer to prevent the lighter slide velocity from becoming excessive. You can, for example, should anything from target loads to +P in a standard 1911, but the short Officer's model only runs reliably with full pressure loads, IME, and target loads won't cycle it properly.

In the Accurate manual, the BRY stands for Berry's, and RN and RNDS (…DS for double struck, which I thought all Berry's were, but maybe I'm wrong) are their round nose bullets. Accurate has:

Accurate #5
BRY RNDS 115 grs 1.130" COL: 5.7 grs start, 6.5 grs max.
BRY RN 124 grs 1.160" COL: 5.6 grs start, 6.3 grs max.

So your 5.4 grain 115 grs bullet load is below Accurate's starting minimum. In this case I would trust Accurate's numbers over other sources because they have your bullet type and only the powder company knows it is testing with an average burn rate powder lot. Other's will have tested whatever lot they purchased, which could have been a little faster or slower than average. So your light bullet load is just too light. The 124 grain load you list is just over minimum, but don't be surprised if you have to nudge it up near maximum Increase it in 0.2 grain steps until you get proper cycling, especially in the SR9c.
 
I think your powder charges are too light. Load 10 at each charge and see if cycling improves....ex:
115 gr - 5.6,5.8,6.0,6.2,6.4

Use accuracy as your guide to when you are over pressure.
 
Hey guys thank you for the replys. Let me start by answering your questions.

Qrz- yes the factory rounds I shot this particular time were RN with a OAL of 1.165. Recoil seemed a bit lighter in the handloads and a little less sharp sounding. The slide would not cycle all the way back ejecting the old round and loading the new. One round stove piped in the sr9c. The diameter of the neck is .376 on my hand loads.

Unclenick- Very valuable info, I appreciate that greatly! I was using western powders load data edition 6.0. Which is very close to the numbers from the older Accurate arms load data. (Shows start load for 124 berry RN at 5.4) However with the 115gr I went with Rainier data because I was not aware I could use berry's RNDS data for xtreme bullets? As stated above the neck diameter is .376.

Also as a side question why is accurates load data so far off from the lee load data for accurate? With my 9mm's not cycling with accurates min loads, they wouldn't stand a chance with lee..... :confused:

Thank you guys again for your help. It looks like I need to try a little more powder this time around.
 
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Lee must offer loads that have a matching slot in a disc. They also must load to the smallest disc, so that a guy won't decide to load to the nest larger hole. They choose a powder and data from the maker, a nd then change that load so that it will work with the disc.

Why can the powder makers load genuine numbers instead of tweaking them to fit a disc? The presumption is that you own an infinitely adjustable measure such as a uniflow, not a measure that only works in present units.

This is why I believe you had failures. I am going to presume that your loads are lighter than accurate information. Five is a good powder for nine, but it does not generate identical pressures, and your velocity May be very low. I believe that your rounds are simply not generating enough recoil impulse and it is building up slowly, so you don't have a strong enough push.

As was said, try raising your charges, stack your discs if you can find a way to get the higher, yet acceptable charge. Don't do light crimps. It is a path to disaster if a bullet slides around in the case, and a powder charge must have a tightly contained area for complete ignition. If that crimp pops open before the charge is fully ignited, it may actually leave the barrel before that charge is fully ignited.

I'm going to say it. I suggest that you dump the disc and make the much larger expenditure for a genuine cast metal measure like a uniflow or any over the others. If you won't, doesn't Lee make an adjustable bar for that thing? Get the bar.

You seem to be a very conscientious and capable guy, and made pretty good decisions on your load, but as a load, assembled that way, it caused failures. If you were using a revolver, you'd have probably had no problems, but semiautomatic weapons Must have special care, or the round will not be capable of generating the energy needed to fully cycle the slide. A stovepipes confirmed that, it shows that the slide didn't have enough power to eject the brass.
 
Loads can be very bullet dependent, so it's always worth double-checking with the bullet maker. The main thing is to do what you did, and start conservative to prove to yourself you are not overdoing anything, then creep up on what you actually need.

The change in the loads from Accurate to Western (Western distributes Accurate now) can at times be due to the actual powder manufacturer changing (powders are made on contract for them) and doing things a little differently. It's interesting to see the 124 grain Berry's and Ranier RN's get about the same charge range from the current book and yet the 115's are very different. The old book had both Raniers getting lighter loads than the Berry's counterparts. That could be due to a problem with the Raniers just not handling pressure as well or having a thinner plate, etc. I don't know the full reason. What I do know is your loads aren't warm enough to function the gun and Accurate #5 is not peaky or anything, so you are good to start working up.

The Lee data is mostly compiled from other sources, and not developed by Lee. It tends toward the low side of maximums I think because Lee depends on VMD tables to choose charge volumes, and those volumes, as Western's web site shows, can vary up to ±5.6% in some powders, so Lee want's to keep on the low side to allow for someone buying a fast lot. That's speculation on my part, but fits the observed data in many instances.
 
Using a volume loader without a scale is not ideal or acceptable, especially if you are the sort of Yahoo who believes that everything is relative, and moves up a bit in disc size because the next size up matches the powder makers maximum. Then, there plenty of people who will use an oversized slot, since it's only supposed to be a few tenths above maximum.

If you have any doubts that there are people out there who are careless enough to play those games, Google " shoots himself with body armor" and make sure you are sitting down as you watch those videos.
 
5.2 of AA #5 is the Start load for a plated 115 according to Accurate's site.
"115 (P) RAIN RN 5.2 1,062 6.1 1,170 34,902 1.140"
5.4 is the Start load for the Berry's 124.
"124 (P) BERRY RN 5.4 956 6.4 1,116 34,732 1.160"
The failing to cycle just means your pistol dislikes the load. Option is to change the return spring(Decided nuisance), up the load of AA #5 or change powders. You have to work up the load anyway, but I'd be thinking of using another powder.
All manuals reflect averages of data found under the conditions using the exact components used on the day of the test only. Manual data is 100% safe, but it's going to vary a bit. Data varies overtime too.
Lee uses Hodgdon data primarily. Like Nick says, they test nothing themselves. The powder maker's data is usually the most reliable, but even that can be daft. Hodgdon's site, for example, gives magnum primers or standard based on the name of the cartridge for the same powder. The name of the cartridge has nothing to do with the primer.
 
Number five isn't for light loads, if that was your plan. That and HS six make good high velocity loads, in my experience. He is right. It may be a good idea to invest in a more appropriate powder for your needs.
 
Thank you guys for all of your input. It was not my intention to work up a light load rather than to just play it safe because I'm still learning. (This can be somewhat intimidating at first) You guys did a bang up job pointing me in the right direction. I think I will take the advice to work the load up in small doses and see what happens. I knew that was the thing to do if you wanted to push towards max however what was not clear to me is the fact that startin loads or even a bit better may have faliure to fire. I wanted to ensure that my loads were light and it wasn't a different error on my part. If my pistols still dont like the loads I will switch to a different powder. I will also invest in a lee bar or a dlbetter powder messure to get a more accurate drop. Very glad I joined this forum. Thank you guys for your time and talk to you all soon.
 
If you decide to stick with Acurrate #5 the Lee adjustable bar will work great. In 9mm I use both HS-6 and 700X with excellent results. The HS-6 likes the higher end pressure wise, and the 700X works great but is a pain for consistent loads and is dependent on which measure you use for accurate drops. One of the reasons the 700X is nice is it only uses a small charge for good results and is very economical, but because of the small charge it will bridge on the Lee disc measures but works pretty well with the Auto Drum or the PPM.
 
Dom, yes, even just putting together pistol ammo for target use gets complicated, and you can go into levels of complexity that I wouldn't even think of if you wanted to go into match rifle. Baking biscuits and cookies is simple, but there is a learning period, and reloading is just that way. The .38 is the toll house of reloading, and nine is more like a good chili. Takes some time and picking around for a brand new loader to get a grip on.

Then you have the guys who fire bench rest at a thousand yards, and this is bridezillas wedding cake.
 
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