Need help with a Taurus 905 SS revolver problem (PICS

[toadywart]

Need help with a Taurus 905 SS revolver problem (PICS)

I bought this revolver because I only reload 9mm Luger.
With Winchester white box it will shoot all day with no problems. First target below is Winchester showing no keyholes.
When I use my Dardas hard lead, 125 grains 0.356” RNBB with 3.9 grains of green dot and OAL 1.140” I get multiple key holes, second target below.
I slugged the cylinder at 0.35”’ and when I slugged the barrel I was shocked to find it at 0.357”. This is 0.001” bigger than the cylinder! So even if I were to go to a larger diameter 9mm bullet the cylinder will knock it down to small for the barrel; so I will still get barrel leading and key holing. The Taurus manual says they will do no warranty for reloads. I have been told that Taurus will not sell parts to the public? Anyone have any experience with this. I would love to buy a slugged 0.355” replacement barrel. If I reload with plated berry bullets would they lead the barrel? Or do I have to go to FMJ reloads?
Are there any other solutions that I am missing?

 

[Jim Watson]

Plated will probably do ok.

I can't imagine putting a custom barrel on a Taurus.
You COULD have the cylinder throats reamed to .357 but then would have to load dedicated ammo to get the most out of it.

 

[Kosh75287]

What hardness are the Dardas projectiles? You might try 125 cast bullets made of softer alloy, to see if they'll obturate and engage the lands and grooves a bit better.

Alliant's max load is 5.2/GreenDot/125LRN. Your load is 25% under that. Can you bump the powder charge up, just a little, without getting unwanted results?

I'd bet a pitcher of beer that your keyhole problem will disappear with increased powder charge, or softer projectiles, or both.

 

[wpsdlrg]

That is a pickle. It is well understood, by most every revolver guy in the world, that the cylinder throats need to be 0.0005 to 0.001" or so larger than the barrel groove diameter. However, for some reason, some of the revolver companies just can't seem to get that right. I've never had a problem with Smith & Wessons, but then, I only like older ones. Ruger seems to make this mistake all the time (I've had two SP101's....both with ridiculously tight throats). Funny thing, I've owned 3 Tauruses (2 mod. 85's and one 605)....none of which has had this issue.

Getting back to the specific problem at hand, a 9mm revolver with an over-sized barrel (or undersized throats) is a real problem. Opening the throats to 0.001" over the barrel groove dia. would seem the logical choice. But, then you'd have to use 0.357" dia. bullets or larger (38 spl. ones)....which can be a real problem in 9mm cases. I think it safe to say that Taurus used a 38/357 barrel on this particular gun.....with a 9mm cylinder. I hope that they aren't ALL this way.

As someone stated, you might be OK with plated or jacketed bullets exclusively. Might be. I think the better course of action though, is to complain to Taurus.....and get them to replace the barrel (with a proper 9mm sized one) on warranty. If not that, you'll need to re-cut the cylinder throats (which is not that tough, but it needs to be done right) - and then use 0.357 - 0.358" cast bullets. If you can make those work in your 9mm cases.

A real pickle, indeed.........

 

[g.willikers]

For better accuracy, lots of folks use .357 lead bullets in their 9mm pistols.
I used 147 truncated cone lead bullets sized .357 whenever they were available, without problems.
But every gun and barrel is different.
And there's a lot of variety in 9mm cases, too, come to think.

 

[reddog81]

I'm kinda of new to this so I could be wrong but, I'm surprised that .001 would cause that much bullet instability. How bad was the leading in the barrel? I have never had much luck with lead bullets in a 9mm. I have had good luck with plated, powder coated, and FMJ's, but lead always creates leading in the barrel and then accuracy goes out the window. Of course my experience and most peoples experience is going to be with autoloader's.

Having the cylinder reamed seems like the most logical answer, but I have no idea how much that costs. I imagine a new barrel and having that installed would be cost prohibitive.

 

[toadywart]

I'm kinda of new to this so I could be wrong but, I'm surprised that .001 would cause that much bullet instability. How bad was the leading . Of.

The leading coated about 80 percent of the inside barrel and 4 out of 5 bullets hit the target sideways making a key hole in the target. I have been told by others that. 0.001" is enough for the super heated gasses to jet around the lead and melt it so it can stick to the barrel.

 

[wpsdlrg]

With leading that severe, keyholing is certainly not hard to believe. Kinda doesn't matter what loads you used, bullet hardness, etc., at this point. The issue of the tight throats/ loose barrel must be addressed.....if you are ever to get this gun to shoot. As I said before, you MIGHT do okay with plated or jacketed bullets. But, I really think you need to get this sorted out properly - and that means either a trip back to Miami for a proper 9mm barrel.....or a gunsmith to open up the throats. Your choice - but one of those things will have to happen. As for Taurus parts, they will not sell anything to any end user, or even a gunsmith. So, if Taurus is to handle this, you'll have to send the gun back.

You might be able to find a used take-off barrel from Numrich, or some other source of used parts. That is iffy, however, because you won't know what dimensions it will have until you have it in hand. Besides, you will have to pay a gunsmith to re-barrel the gun. That will be more expensive than opening the cylinder throats.

Enlarging the cylinder throats is not that difficult - you could actually do that yourself. But, there is a good possibility of messing it up, if you don't know what you are doing. So, if this direction is taken, it would be best to have a gunsmith do it (he/she will have the proper tools anyway).

Plated or jacketed bullets won't lead the barrel, but with the cylinder/ barrel out of kilter that much there is a strong chance that you won't get good accuracy. It's probably worth a try, though.

The truth is, you likely will not get the gun to shoot worth a darn without fixing the problem properly, as outlined above (even with plated or jacketed bullets). So, if I were you, I wouldn't waste any more time on it, short of a proper solution. There are no magic fixes here. If Taurus won't fix the gun on warranty, you will be left with paying for it yourself. Or getting rid of the gun.

A hard truth to face.....but there it is.

 

[saleen322]

If some rounds are shooting okay, I would still suspect the bullet. There is more to good cast bullets than just being the correct diameter and advertised as "hard." Try some of these 9mm bullets, like the 120 TC from the vendor below. While they are available in various sizes, I would still go with the standard 0.356. My guess is your problem will likely go away. Good luck.

http://www.pennbullets.com/index.html

 

[g.willikers]

Another vote for Penn Bullets.
Very good quality.

 

[guncheese]

have the cylinder throats reamed to .3585"
and run .358" bullets
its a revolver so you can play all sorts of OAL games as well
i run .358" soft lead (alox or powder coated) in all my 9mm guns

 

[saleen322]

Since you asked for advice, I just strongly suggest that you make sure there is something wrong with the revolver before you fix it. If you start reaming and cutting, etc; you can't put metal back. I have seen quality 9mms do exactly what you are describing with yours and each time it was the ammo. Most often the bullets but 9s are powder finicky also. Again, be sure there is problem before doing things that can't be reversed. Good luck.

 

[TimSr]

Alliant's max load is 5.2/GreenDot/125LRN. Your load is 25% under that. Can you bump the powder charge up, just a little, without getting unwanted results?

I would try this first. A hard bullet that is slightly undersize needs more pressure to obturate for a good fit. If you've hit max load and are still having problems, then you can look in other directions.

Since you asked for advice, I just strongly suggest that you make sure there is something wrong with the revolver before you fix it. If you start reaming and cutting, etc; you can't put metal back. I have seen quality 9mms do exactly what you are describing with yours and each time it was the ammo. Most often the bullets but 9s are powder finicky also. Again, be sure there is problem before doing things that can't be reversed. Good luck.

Very good advice. The gunsmith is where you go when you run out of simpler, and less expensive options, not the place where you go when your first load doesn't work well. Load some jacketed ammo to establish a baseline of the gun's capabilitiy, and then you can determine if its the gun or the load that needs work.

 

[wpsdlrg]

Though, in general, I agree with the concept of trying different bullets and loads FIRST.....IF indeed the barrel/ cylinder throat diameters ARE as the OP said they are....different loads and bullets most likely WON'T do squat.

Severely undersized cylinder throats (or oversized barrel, put another way)....are virtually guaranteed to cause major problems. You can't get around that.

So, yes, by all means, the OP should be very sure that his measurements are accurate before doing anything. But, IF THEY ARE, all the hoping in the world....as well as trying different bullets, ain't gonna fix it.

Just saying......because it needs to be made clear.

 

[toadywart]

Did another test on the Taurus

I wanted to see how much the accuracy difference there was between my hard cast bullets and Winchester White box. I thought if the white box ammo had poor groupings like the hard cast I would have a valid reason for sending it back for warranty. The first photo is white box ammo, all shots are at 30 feet and bench rested. The groupings were comparable to what I was getting from my SW Shield and G19 ( shield and glock targets not shown). The next photo is when I put in my hard cast bullets, nasty! Next photo is when I switched back to white box. So white box seemed to be accurate and hard cast yuck! Some people suggest that I try Penn Bullets but for a few more dollars Berry's Plated bullets seemed like a better deal. I ordered Berry's and as soon as I get them and load a few I will let you know the results.

 

[wpsdlrg]

The WWB ammo likely comes with 0.355" dia. bullets. So, they aren't really being swaged down in the cylinder throats. Even jacketed bullets tend to bump up when they enter the barrel.....and they tend to be more tolerant of being slightly undersized (than cast ones). So, the WWB bullets, while still undersized for the barrel, are still taking the rifling. Accuracy with such a situation will never be at it's best, but it is still possible to get fair accuracy.

Your cast slugs (0.356" dia., if I remember correctly) are getting swaged down - and rather violently. They then enter the forcing cone and barrel undersized. As such, little or no "bumping up" in the barrel is occurring. So, they skid and bounce down the barrel, leaving lead streaks and never fully "taking the rifling". Hence poor accuracy, leading in the barrel....and even keyholing.

The information presented in your last post fits exactly with the above explanation. So, it reinforces the idea that the cylinder throats are smaller than the barrel groove diameter, as you already seemed to find by direct measurement. I will reiterate that I believe, given the evidence already presented, that Taurus used a 38 special barrel on your 9mm revolver. Whether this is standard practice with them I do not know - but I hope not. It would seem that they might know better - and could simply confirm thie problem by inspection of the gun in question - at which point, I would hope that they would agree to replace the barrel with a properly sized one. Of course, that remains to be seen.

The gun, like all Tauruses, does have a lifetime "service policy". So you should at least be able to get them to inspect it without charge. In the end, however, it is still entirely unknown as to whether you will get an actual solution to the problem from Taurus. They might build all of their 9mm revolvers that way..... and may simply declare that the gun in question is "in spec". I do hope not, though.

If Taurus ends up being of no help, your only choices (other than getting rid of the gun) would be to have the cylinder throats opened up and loading accordingly, or shooting only jacketed bullets and living with less than optimum accuracy.

The Berry's bullets you ordered - what diameter are they ? Berry's makes plated 9mm bullets in 0.356" diameter - I have some here. But, whether they are 0.356" or 0.355".....if your cylinder throat measurement is accurate, you still won't get optimum accuracy. The bullets will still enter the barrel undersized (given the barrel diameter).

I would contact Taurus - and insist that the barrel is oversized (provided you are certain of your measurements) - and request a return authorization. Since you are not the original owner, you will have to pay shipping TO Miami (that is their policy).

I can easily imagine this situation will rapidly become more expensive than the gun is worth. Shipping it back to Miami will set you back around $70. Having the cylinder throats opened could run a couple of hundred $ (or could be less, depending). Either way, unless this gun is particularly dear to you, it all could get out of hand, so to speak.

Finally, I will say this. I have a Taurus model 605, which is a 2" snubby, exactly like the model 85 series, except in .357 magnum. I have not slugged the barrel, but I can say absolutely that MY 605 shoots cast bullets of 0.356" dia. just fine. (I have lots of these, left over from when I loaded 9mm - and I am trying to use them up.) I found that this Taurus, just like my Smith & Wessons, will handle these bullets without problems. So, obviously, the barrel groove diameter is smaller than 0.357". My Smiths are all closer to 0.355", which is typical for Smith & Wessons (a lot of people don't realize this, but it is true). The cylinder throats of my gun run a bit larger than 0.357". The gun will, of course, handle "normal" 0.357" bullets fine as well. So, I have difficulty believing that Taurus puts 0.357" barrels on their 9mm revolvers - because they DO seem to make ones of smaller groove diameter. As I said, I think they screwed up and put the wrong barrel on your gun.

 

[James K]

If I understand correctly, some bullets keyhole and others do not.

Have you ever considered marking the cylinder chambers and then keeping track of which chambers you get keyholing from? If it turns out that the keyholing is associated with specific chambers, then you can check to see what the difference is between chambers that cause keyholing and those that don't.

If there is no association with specific chambers, then you can look to the ammo, and also perhaps try it in another gun if one is available.

Jim

 

[toadywart]

Final Resolution Taurus 9mm Revolver

First picture below shows barrel on my revolver, it is marked as 9mm. Second picture shows the front of the revolver barrel. I cannot tell if this has a rifled bore insert. If it does they still could of put the wrong insert in it. I did find another post on the internet where somebody with a taurus 9mm semiautomatic pistol had measured the same bore as I did in my revolver.

The last picture is what my groups look like using Berry's Plated bullets. No key holeing at 10 yards bench rested. Groupings I find comparable to my other pistols. It is a five shot revolver so no key holeing from any chamber. The Berry's cost 2 1/2 cents more than the hard cast bullets I was using. So I will be using these in that revolver. I would have to shot a lot off bullets through it to justify any type of machining on it.

Thank you for everyones' help on this issue!

 

[lee n. field]

I cannot tell if this has a rifled bore insert. If it does they still could of put the wrong insert in it.

crowned that way, not an insert.

 

[MarkCO]

I just picked up a 905SS, actually after I had read this thread. I had one cylinder that was producing keyholes with about 80% of plated and lead, but not with jacketed. I checked everything, measured everything and I could not find anything. I took some long loaded 9mm dummy rounds and pushed the slug into the throat and backside of the chambers. I found one tight chamber in the cylinder (mind you they all measured the same) and when I pulled it out, the bullet had a cut in it. Upon inspection, I found a small burr on the end of the chamber. I cleaned that up and no more keyholes.

Not sure if that helps the OP at this point, but something to check.

I do really like the revolver and was happy to find that the chambers are cut short enough the it can be shot without the moonclips with 100% reliability.