Need help with a little debate.

C

Christina Whittington

New member
Well, I just found out that my boss at work is anti gun. He believes that guns are not the answer for protection. He says that fighting sports like boxing, karate, tai kwon doe, etc are better protection tools. He especially doesn't believe in children being around guns, or especially being taught how to use them, because he says that despite the upbringing, the child could just wake up one day and decide that he/she is going to go psycho and shoot some people. I asked why, in all the years guns have been around, that all the sudden lately that gun crimes have been aplenty? He says because the home life has changed. There are more single parent homes where the parent works all the time. I said that is exactly the reason, not that guns play a part. He says that was wrong and that guns are the cause. This ofcourse is two seperate things that he is trying to put together.
The problem is that when I try to discuss a topic like this, I can't think straight to discuss it like I would want to. Any "ammunition" (no pun intended) ;) would be appreciated.
Thanks
CW

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Amendment II (1791)
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

So many politicians......so little ammunition!!!
 
You might be wasting your time with this guy; however, find the CDC reports for accidental death or the DOJ's stats for deaths. I don't have them, but you'll find that kids die from drownings more than guns. That PEOPLE, not just kids, die more from 'falls' than guns, about 16000 vs 10,000.
www.guncite.com might have the links.

A REAL good one is: www.keepandbeararms.com/images/gunfacts.pdf

All stats are footnoted. It debunks a lot of the myths with facts.

As a martial artist (very poor one), I prefer the gun. Even Bruce Lee acknowleged a gun would trump a martial artist.

madison46
 
Christina, I highly recommend Guncite as a good basic source for countering most miseducation concerning firearms and helping you to form a sound, persuasive reply.

Regarding karate, etc. being a better protection tool, it just isn't true... check out http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgeff.html for data showing that firearms are the most effective tool for self-defense (by the way, if you want to go into this even deeper, John Lott has also done some work supporting this premise and finds that the protective benefits are greater for females with guns than males with guns).

madison provides some good links and factoids; but I'd add the following clarification. Accidental falls kill more people than firearm accidents AND homicides/legal intervention combined. If you add suicides, the guns take the lead again - but their is a lot of evidence to suggest that gun control doesn't reduce suicides. You can compare numbers here: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/osp/usmort.htm

Keep in mind that CDC counts justifiable homicide by citizens as homicide. It only counts as legal intervention if you are military or law enforcement in the performance of your duties.

Check a post I made called "Intro to gun control". It is chock full of facts and links to check out.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Christina Whittington:
Well, I just found out that my boss at work is anti gun. He believes that guns are not the answer for protection. He says that fighting sports like boxing, karate, tai kwon doe, etc are better protection tools.
[/quote]

I am curious. Is he an "expert" in one of the fighting sports? If he is, has he ever been in a vicious, no holds-barred type of fight where the penalty for losing is lying broken, bloody, and semi-conscious at the feet of the victor? He is completely helpless and all it takes to end his life is one more blow.

If he isn't an "expert", has he ever considered how much training and practice it takes to be totally proficient so he never has to worry about ever being beaten?

If he fantasizes himself an "expert", has he considered how he will maintain his skill and prowess when he gets older?

Bruce
 
Regarding the "martial arts vs. guns" debate, just remember that scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark"...

Ninja sword master approaches Indiana Jones, swinging his two swords viciously. Jones looks bored, pulls out his revolver and shoots the guy. Hollywood got that ONE right.

Just remind your boss of that scene and see what he says.

Rather than try to overwhelm the boss, I would just focus on three statistics (Thanks to "Gun Facts 2.2"

1) 90% of all violent crimes do NOT involve a gun. (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, 1998. That means that if you completely eliminate guns, you might stop 10% of violent crimes. But probably not. Those 10% will probably just use the same tools the other 90% use.

2) Guns PREVENT approximately 2.5 million crimes a year(Dr. Gary B. Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University, 1997) So if you get rid of guns, you potentially ADD 2.5 million crimes a year.

3) Real work example of this: Washington, DC has banned gun ownership and has a per-capita murder rate of 56.9. Right across the river, in Arlington, VA gun ownership is unregulated and the murder rate is only 1.6 per capita.

Download and print Gun Facts 2.2 from www.keepandbeararms.com and you'll have all the facts you need.
 
You live in Dallas, you must work in California or New Jersey York if your boss has an attitude like that.

As far as a causal effect between guns and deaths related to guns I offer this logic.
1) Is gun related suicide caused by guns? If he says 'no' then move onto number 2. If he says 'yes' then present this. Japan is a country of about one half the population of the U.S. yet more people die there by suicide than in the U.S. Since the popluation is smaller, that gives Japan a suicide rate of more than twice ours. There are no legally held handguns in private hands in Japan and very few long guns. IF GUNS CAUSE SUICIDE explain how the rate in Japan is more than twice ours yet guns are not there to cause it. Logical conclusion should be that there are other causes of suicide besides firearms.

2. Accidental death and homicides related to firearms, non-suicide is all that is to be considered, have been dropping for over 10 years yet the estimates of the number of firearms in private hands has been rising steadily. The estimate is now 234,000,000 guns. S&W, Ruger, Colt, and the rest are putting over 1,000,000 new firearms into private hands every year. If there are 1,000,000 more guns every year, and guns are the cause of accidental and homicide gun related deaths, how could the death rate and numbers be dropping? We are looking at a %40 drop just in the last decade. How does he explain the causal relationship?
 
Keep it simple. Tell him you know a 300-pounder who knows a little about grappling and a little about boxing, and has sparred karateka and TKD "artists" pretty successfully. Ask him how he'd handle that guy without a gun, full speed, no rounds, to the death.

He will reply that skill cancels size, blah blah blah. Do not be discouraged; this is only natural bravado. Simply respond by calmly asking him how his MOTHER would handle that 300 lb. killer. The light should then come on.
 
Indiana Jones... :D

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com

Do it for the children...
 
A person skilled with a stick will kill a person skilled in bare hand combat in the first second or two. The person skilled with a firearm will kill the person with the stick in like time. I say combat, as in mortal combat, not sport. There is a huge difference between sport, as in "martial arts" and mortal combat.

A person who is bent on doing you harm is worthy of the application of lethal force in your defence. Extremely rare are the persons capable of applying sufficient level of force without using a firearm.

A child should be educated in the handling of sissors, knives, ball bats, firearms....all alike, if you don't know how to handle it properly, don't handle it at all.

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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
Ms. Whittington,

It is often counter productive to debate a premise when those who debate come to the premise with different assumptions. Based on your rehearsal of your boss' position it seem to me he assumes martial "sports" are the same as personal self-defense. He therefore assumes proficiency in a regulated, ritualized, and refereed contest is the same as a life or death struggle where there is one winner and no second chance. I don't think you'll make progress with statistics and so forth until he is willing to admit sport and self-defense are different.

Regarding children and guns, it appears to me he is assuming that a child will not be influenced in a positive manner with coaching, mentoring, training, loving and caring parent and adult. As a parent I do not make that assumption. I assume careful guidance, training, and opportunity will positively effect my children's future and unsupervised behavior. It appears also to me he assumes the gun represents inanimate evil. I assume a gun is an inanimate object with no moral agency. It is used morally or immorally by a moral agent (a person)

Good luck! But it just seems to me his assumptions on the subject of guns is different than your assumption and I do not see how you can successfully argue until his assumptions change (no, you don't change your's).


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Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Barry Goldwater--1964

[This message has been edited by Waitone (edited October 11, 2000).]
 
The martial-arts stuff is all well & good...
...until somebody on the other side of the room pulls out a pistol- or a crossbow- and then it's all over...
 
Two points:<OL TYPE=1><LI> Your boss (actually, none of us) is not getting any younger. No matter how much he trains, over time his speed, his skill, his strength, his stamina, etc.; will decline little by little -- maybe even so slowly that he might not even notice from day to day or week to week but as the months and years go on, his ability to defend himself with his bare hands will be less and less. When faced with a foe who is younger, stronger, bigger, faster and maybe even better skilled, he will have a serious problem on his hands.
<LI> With regard to children and guns ... I posted something over in General entitled "For The Children". It tells of a lunatic breaking into a home with a pitch fork and stabbing everyone. He might have been crazy but he was smart enough to first cut the phone lines so that nobody could call '911'. A 13 year old girl frequently went shooting with her father and therefore knew how to properly use a gun. However, state & local laws required that firearms be locked up in homes where minors lived -- thus, preventing her from being able to come to the aid of her family who were being stabbed to death.

She ran to a neighbor for help. By the time police arrived a younger brother and a younger sister were already dead. If this CHILD had access to a gun, two lives would have been saved!</OL>Our government can not defend us (where were they in this particular case) but they continue to restrict our ability to defend ourselves. Something is wrong with this picture!
 
If martial arts are so superior, then why do cops carry guns?

Every martial arts intructor that I've spoken with has said that your skill in a martial art will only be able to overcome so much brute force. The 5'5" 120lb woman will NEVER kick the butt of a 6'2" 230lb man. Have him call a local M.A. school to find out.

It's also very difficult to fight once you have been pinned on the ground (imagine awakening one night pinned to your bed by a 200lb rapist), but you can still reach a gun a shoot the troll.

Tell him that you'll send 2 200lb guys over to his house, and you'd like to see how well he Hong Kong Phooeys them.
 
kungfu.gif
 
Forget about quoting the statistics to your boss. They may help, but it sounds like his mind is made up.

Explain to him that self-defense with a firearm is only a natural extension or continuation of unarmed self-defense.

No one can be so arrogant to believe that their unarmed fighting skills are to only tool they'll ever need...If he thinks so, give it up.
 
Well, I spoke again with him last night at work, and I mentioned that martial arts is a deadly protection tool aswell. He said that he knew that but, in a confrontation, it's better to leave someone hurt and bleeding than dead on the floor.
I also mentioned that since Texas passed the conceal carry law that rape crime had gone down. (Or crime in general) He said "It's easy to say that crime has gone down in a state where that state is considered to have the 2nd most crimes on the books." "Because if crimes have been so high, they have to come down at some point" (And he gave statistics about Dallas and San Antonio having high crime rates) (Then someone walked by and made a comment that agreed with him. :mad: )
I asked him where he got his info and he said from the Dallas Morning News (what he called "the Texas newspaper"). I said they were owned by the same company that owns WFAA the ABC affiliate here in Dallas who is the WORST about being one sided :rolleyes: .
I plan on showing him these TRUE stats that I got off the webpage one of you sent. I also gave him a copy of an article out of the Texas State Rifle Association magazine that was titled, "Anti Gun, or Anti Rights". Very interesting reading I might add.
I also mention about the video the NRA made about the ban in Australia and England. About all those wonderful guns being destroyed and thrown into rubber tubs :( .
Ya know what he said? "THAT WOULD BE AWESOME" :mad: :mad: :mad:
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HELP ME!!!!!
CW

------------------
Amendment II (1791)
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

So many politicians......so little ammunition!!!
 
Leave this guy be. Some you just can't help. You can leave him with two final points.

1) Call for a pizza, and the police - see which one gets there first

2) If he is so anti, then he won't mind displaying a sign at his house "Gun Free House" in the front yard.

Forget Texas stats dropping, NYC and Wash DC stats are up where control is tight. 1.6 miles from DC in Arlinton, VA, they have loose gun control and low crime.

After that, forget about it. Your wasting your energy. The best way to get back at him is to find 2 new people to vote for Bush.

madison
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Christina Whittington:
Well, I spoke again with him last night at work, and I mentioned that martial arts is a deadly protection tool aswell. He said that he knew that but, in a confrontation, it's better to leave someone hurt and bleeding than dead on the floor.
I also mentioned that since Texas passed the conceal carry law that rape crime had gone down. (Or crime in general) He said "It's easy to say that crime has gone down in a state where that state is considered to have the 2nd most crimes on the books." "Because if crimes have been so high, they have to come down at some point" (And he gave statistics about Dallas and San Antonio having high crime rates) (Then someone walked by and made a comment that agreed with him. :mad: )
I asked him where he got his info and he said from the Dallas Morning News (what he called "the Texas newspaper"). I said they were owned by the same company that owns WFAA the ABC affiliate here in Dallas who is the WORST about being one sided :rolleyes: .
I plan on showing him these TRUE stats that I got off the webpage one of you sent. I also gave him a copy of an article out of the Texas State Rifle Association magazine that was titled, "Anti Gun, or Anti Rights". Very interesting reading I might add.
I also mention about the video the NRA made about the ban in Australia and England. About all those wonderful guns being destroyed and thrown into rubber tubs :( .
Ya know what he said? "THAT WOULD BE AWESOME" :mad: :mad: :mad:
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HELP ME!!!!!
CW

[/quote]
 
I would have to agree with Madison on this one. I'd give it one last shot and then forget about it. You can focus your efforts somewhere that will do more good. It usually isn't worth trying to convert a committed anti unless they are politically active (because then they become even MORE active for your cause).

He may also not have any strong feelings on the debate; but just enjoys egging you on (a lot of my fence-sitting friends love to play this game with me).
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by madison46: ... Call for a pizza, and the police - see which one gets there first ...[/quote]I like that! With regard to his statement that "it's better to leave someone hurt and bleeding than dead on the floor". He does have a valid point ... deadly force with a gun is usually only legally justified when there is a threat of death or serious bodily injury. If a bully/trouble maker shoves you or punches you, a knowledge of self defense skills would be useful. After all, you're not going to pull out a gun a shoot the person.

However, in a situation where deadly force might be required because the person that you are facing is either bigger and stronger or younger & faster & better skilled than you, having a firearm and knowing how to properly use it will once again tip the scales back in your favor.

My karate instructor is a fourth degree black belt. There's less than a handful of instructors in this country who are higher. I've seen him defeat first and second degree black belts (one at a time of course) in a matter of seconds.

He went to Japan for a full-contact competition. In the quarterly finals he was matched against a "geek with glasses" who was less than half his size. Guess who advanced to the semi-finals and who flew back to America? The geek with glasses!

The point is that you can be fooled by appearances and you never really know the skill level of your foe. In a life & death situation, you might be unpleasantly surprized and at that point it may be too late. Proper handgun techniques removes a lot of this guess work.
 
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