Need Help: Wiley Clapp Lightweight Commander

J

Joshua 2415

New member
I had a Wiley Clapp Lightweight Commander that went back and forth to Colt for almost two years because it would periodically jam. Finally they agreed to replace the gun. In fact, the service manager made me one from scratch, from their Custom Shop. Despite my frustration with two years and multiple trips, I was glad to eventually get this new gun.

While the previous gun would jam with failures to feed at any point in the magazine (usually in the middle rounds), the new gun jams frequently, but only on the last (8th) round in the mag. These jams are also failures to feed, like the previous pistol, and the jams are with hollow points only (HST and Golden Saber), but so far never with FMJ.

The Colt service manager said I should simply use 7 round mags, and the problem should go away. Well, I wasn't happy with that, I really want that extra round. It's a self-defense gun for me. The service manager never said the pistol isn't designed for 8 rounds, he just said a 7 round mag would be more reliable. In any case, he sent me six 8 round mags (three each of two different types) to see if different styles of mags would help. I had been using Wilson Combat 8 round mags. Those mags work flawlessly in my Ruger 1911, as do all the other Colt mags. My Ruger eats everything, regardless of mag or ammo type.

Well, changing mags on the Colt did seem at first to make a difference, and I was happy. But, at my last range visit, I had another FTF on the 8th round of one of the extra mags that was from Colt, which I previously tested and thought was good-to-go. So know I've lost confidence in my gun again.

Here are some questions for you 1911 experts:

1) Is there something about the Wiley Clapp Lightweight Commander that makes it prone to this problem with the 8th round? I've noticed on the Colt website that some pistols are listed as "capacity 8" while others are "capacity 7". Is this WC Lightweight Commander actually a 7 round design, and I'm fighting a losing battle trying to use 8 round magazines? The gun is not listed on their website, so I don't know.

2) Is this problem with the 8th round a known issue, such that there is a magazine make/style that I should be looking for that will fix the problem?

3) The Colt XSE is listed as "Capacity 8" on their website. Given that the 8th round does matter to me, should I sell my WC Lightweight Commander and get an XSE? Or, am I just as likely to have this issue with the XSE?

Thanks for the help!
 
OK here goes:

1. Any commander size gun will be more prone to issues than a 5 inch, the shorter side cycles faster so jams easier so mag spring has to be stronger to get the rounds up to be there to feed.

2. The original 1911 design was a 7 round mag. 8 round mags can skimp on spring wire gauge to fit the extra round in so the spring is weaker and is weakest for the last round --- complicating the above issue mentioned

3. Pick a mag and stay with it... best advise for anyone in 1911's. If I read your post correct the gun works with 8 round wilson mags? So use wilson mags. Wilson and chip power mags are the most popular n my neck of the woods and have solved many a problem I have seen with a 1911 feeding. Most serious shooters find a mag they like order a ton of them and number them, so if an issue arrises you know it it's always the same mag. Mag springs are a wear item and need to be replaced every so often.

I have been all wilson mags for 10 plus years. I get 3 years or so on a round wire mag spring, have some of their flat wire spring mags, I like them so far will see long range how they do. I give away or sell the mags that come with my new guns to stay all wilson keeps everything the same.

The feeding reliability is the combination of the gun, the ammo and the mag. Eliminate as many variables as possible and though Colt gave you a bunch of free mags if wilson works always, all the time use them and either relegate the colts to to range or sell / give them away. Some people love Colt mags, I have never considered them any better than average; so if the wilsons run good with JHP ammo in the commander then use them. Each little thing ... commander, 8 rather than 7, JHP instead of ball adds a demand that calls for a better mag.

Put another way for what it's worth, the colt gunsite 1911 and marine 1911 come with wilson mags, 7 rounders as I recall.

So 1911's are perverse in that and many other ways... most guns you stick to OEM mags and avoid at all costs aftermarket if you want max reliability. For the 1911 I and many others can the OEM and go with an aftermarket.
 
Is this WC Lightweight Commander actually a 7 round design
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7 in the magazine, 1 in the chamber gives you the "8 round capacity " listed.

If it works reliably with 7, then I'd load 7.

That one extra round REALLY won't make any practical difference
 
also another factor might be tight tolerances, and possibly the "lightweight" factor as well, as in that the frame and/or slide is made from Aluminum Alloy or another light weight alloy, which expands and contracts, although it's not really noticeable, it does happen and combined that with tight tolerances and mag springs, recoil springs, ammo type, ect. can lead to jaming, FTFs, and FTEs.
 
OK lets try to break this down step by step. I am not gunsmith but shoot a lot of 1911, did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I will give it a shot.

While the previous gun would jam with failures to feed at any point in the magazine (usually in the middle rounds), the new gun jams frequently, but only on the last (8th) round in the mag. These jams are also failures to feed, like the previous pistol, and the jams are with hollow points only (HST and Golden Saber), but so far never with FMJ.
Click to expand...

So the gun runs 100% with ball ammo but fails to feed HST and Golden Saber hollow points on the 8th round only? Does it fail to feed every time with those JHP? The simplest solution might be just to change to a different JHP design like the Gold Dot or Winchester Ranger. Sometime some guns simply do not like some hollow point designs. Although Golden Sabers are the most ball like profile when it comes to JHPs so lets keep investigating.

When you say failure to feed exactly what is happening? In order to determine what is causing the gun to malfunction we need to clarify exactly what type of malfunction you are experiencing. FTF can mean different things to different people. With 1911s most of the time people are referring to one of 3 scenarios.

Failure to return to Battery: Is it a simple failure to go to/return to battery...and bumping it on the back of the slide finishes cambering the round?

3 Point Jam: Is the round hitting as it is entering the chamber and getting stuck at an angle with 3 points of contact?

FTF aka Bolt over base: Is the round nose-up on the last round? Is it getting caught between the slide and barrel hood with the cartridge that is sticking straight up like a stovepipe failure to eject but the round sticking up is live?

If it is making it into the chamber even a little it is not a failure to feed it is a failure to return to battery.

Which of these two pics does it look like? Pics of your gun malfunctioning will help us help you.

Failure to return to battery:
gunpics22545bz.jpg


3 Point Jam:
top_side.jpg


Bolt over Base:
null_zpsb819d73a.jpg


Well, changing mags on the Colt did seem at first to make a difference, and I was happy. But, at my last range visit, I had another FTF on the 8th round of one of the extra mags that was from Colt, which I previously tested and thought was good-to-go. So know I've lost confidence in my gun again.
Click to expand...

Did all the mags fail or only one mag? You need to mark any mags that are producing failures. You said that Colt sent you two different types of mags. I assume they are both Colt OEM. Colt does not make their own mags IIRC these days they are Checkmate mags. What is the difference in the mags they sent. I assume the difference is the feeding lips. My guess is they sent your some with hybrid feeding lips, GI feeding lips or maybe even wadcutter feeding lips. Pics again would help.

P08B030002atxt.jpg


If you can answer these questions we should be able to shed more light on what is going on. If I have to guess right now it is weak mag springs, mag follower design or extractor tension related.
 
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Understand, all ol' Wiley contributed to this gun was cosmetics to give Talo something to sell. Mechanically it is no different from a Colt catalog Commander.

All 1911 derived .45s might be called "7 round design." The magazine makers have come up with trick followers, minimum springs, and 'now you see it now you don't' tubes to squeeze in 8.

With an aluminum frame you are limited in gunsmithing, not much to do to the frame ramp without an insert or a new integral ramp barrel. Could something be done to the barrel ramp to get you an 8th (9th?) JHP? I don't know. As WVsig says, it depends on the type of feeding failure you are getting.

I can see some options.
Try every 8 shot magazine on the market hoping to find one that works.
Settle for 7.
Load a hardball round as the first in - eighth fired shot.
Go to an independent gunsmith and modify the gun as required.

Me?
My old Commander gets 7 X Hardball in accordance with the recommendations of my gunsmith. Many years ago it misfed on the 198th round of a 200 round SWC confidence test so I have not since asked it to shoot anything but roundnose. I guess I could prove it with a large supply of hollowpoints but that would be a lengthy, expensive, hard kicking project.
I have steel guns with ramp jobs to shoot SWCs and JHPs in; and match guns that do ok with 8 and 9 round magazines.
 
I'm the OP. Here are some responses, in no particular order:

The 8 round capacity on the Colt website is referring specifically to the magazine capacity, so it would be 8 round mag + 1 in the chamber for 9 rounds total.

I wasn't clear on this, sorry. No, the Wilson's do not work consistently on the Colt. They do work fine on my Ruger. Every mag type works on the Ruger, the Ruger has never failed in any way, not ever. But the Colt is finicky.

The jams are like the 3 point shown in the middle picture. However, the round is usually a little more vertical, with the bullet showing and not hidden in the front of the chamber. But, it's not fully vertical like the stove-pipe in picture three. I have pictures of it in my cell phone and could easily email or text it to somebody, but I don't know how to do pics on this forum. I'm somewhat technologically challenged. :o

The 8th round jamming problem does not happen every time a mag is used. That's what's driving me crazy. It's intermittent. So, I'll test a mag, think it's ok after 4 or 5 cycles. Then use it again later, and get a jam. I'm not sure what to trust. At the moment, I simply have placed an FMJ round as the last one in the mags when carrying the Colt. I just started doing that, haven't really run alot of mags that way to be sure it works, it feels like a band-aid solution. Wish I knew how to fix this.
 
I'm just the opposite, the 7 round mag is just fine for a carry gun. I only need the 8 red ones for competition. It really doesn't matter on a carry gun. I usually carry a 642 or an LC9. If you don't get it done in the first 3 or 4 shots it ain't gonna work.
 
One thing you did not answer is: Is the problem happening with all the mags or just one? It would be helpful if you can qualify that. If you are like me and many other shooters with multiple mags sometimes we end up using one mag more than others. If it is happening on all the mags it might lead us to the extractor or feed ramp. Since you are having issues I would take masking tape and mark each mag with a #. If you get a failure with it remove it from the rotation and cycle through the others. Rinse and repeat. You might find it is really only a single mag or the mags with a particular feeding lip style and then proceed accordingly. This solution will not cost you $$$ just ammo you want to shoot anyway LOL!

Now back to the diagnosis of the issue. Does the round look more like this:

BOB.jpg


If it does you have a live round stove pipe which is also referred to as a "Bolt Over Base Misfeed." I have exchanged many PMs about these types of stoppages with 1911tuner who is one of the internets most knowledgeable 1911 guys. He frequents many of the boards. He seems to be over a THR more than he is here. From what I have learned from him and from shooting 1911s I believe you have a magazine problem.

It's a magazine problem related to the spring. The mag spring is not strong enough to get the round to feeding position in time for the slide to hit the rim and catches it in the extractor groove instead. This is what caused the back end of the round to go down and the nose end to go up where the slide rams it into the hood of the barrel causing the stoppage.

This is not surprising since the Colt mags are Checkmates which have good bodies, good followers and good feeding lips but have been known to have weak springs. I would get some new ones from Wolf and see if the issues go away. Also depending on what vintage Wilson mags you have they are also known for weak springs.

http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto Pistols/COLT/1911 GOV'T PISTOL/cID1/mID1/dID1#805

It would also not be a bad idea to check the extractor and make sure it is clean, look for burs imperfection, make sure its not binding and not clocking. You can also test its tension. I believe if it was an extractor issue you would see it happening on more than just the last round but the multiple mags thing is a bit of a curve.
 
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I have a Colt LW Commander, I've not suffered a misfeed, and have used nothing but Check-Mate 8-round mags.
So, there's no reason a Commander shouldn't run with 8-round mags, and I wouldn't agree that a Check-Mate 8-rounder will necessarily have a weak spring.
I have had bolt-over-base misfeeds (different gun, SEVEN-round mags), but it was not spring-related. New, "extra power" mag springs did not fix it.
Have you tried any 7-round mags, to see if the Colt guy was correct?
If you have had no problems with hardball, but problems with bullets of the same weight but different shape, that appears to point at the bullets, and not the mags (though it's possibly, maybe probably, an incompatibility of bullet shape and mag, so what you might have to do is check all your mags with a number of different rounds).
 
I have a Colt LW Commander, I've not suffered a misfeed, and have used nothing but Check-Mate 8-round mags.

So, there's no reason a Commander shouldn't run with 8-round mags, and I wouldn't agree that a Check-Mate 8-rounder will necessarily have a weak spring.

I have had bolt-over-base misfeeds (different gun, SEVEN-round mags), but it was not spring-related. New, "extra power" mag springs did not fix it.
Have you tried any 7-round mags, to see if the Colt guy was correct?

If you have had no problems with hardball, but problems with bullets of the same weight but different shape, that appears to point at the bullets, and not the mags (though it's possibly, maybe probably, an incompatibility of bullet shape and mag, so what you might have to do is check all your mags with a number of different rounds).
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There was a time when they were shipping with weak springs and they knew it. If you called them they would send you replacements for free. You are correct that not all checkmate mags will have issues but it is a known issue none the less.

When you had a bolt over base feeding issue with 7 rounders what was the cause?

I agree that the Commander should run 8 rounders without issue but the OP has to do a little more work to determine what the real issue is. It very well could be simply mag/feeding lips, ammo & gun combination causing the issue but we really need more info.
 
When you had a bolt over base feeding issue with 7 rounders what was the cause?
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Not sure. The 7-rounders were Check-Mate hybrids, and when I installed the guts from those mags in Metalform wadcutter-lip mag tubes, the last-round problems went away.
I think the hybrid lip design does not retain the rounds securely enough for small guns; a combination of not being able to get as good a grip on the gun, and the violent cycling of the small/light slide.
 
The problem has occurred with multiple mags. I've even thrown away a few that had jams. Wish I had kept them to study the type of mag it was. I just thought they were defective, didn't think about discerning one lip design vs another, etc.

I've been shooting Golden Saber 185+P and HST 230. Both have had the jamming.
 
Here is the OPs pic of the actual malfunction.
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Certainly a severe "bolt over base" malfunction like you illustrated in post 5.

Weak magazine spring, binding magazine follower, overly strong recoil spring.
 
Certainly a severe "bolt over base" malfunction like you illustrated in post 5.

Weak magazine spring, binding magazine follower, overly strong recoil spring.
Click to expand...

I agree. If it were me I would buy a few Chip McCormick Powermags. They are about $28 and check to see if they work. If they do I would keep those for carry and then use the others for range work. Down the road you can replace the springs and test them as needed.

http://www.chipmccormickmags.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16131

Again I am not a gunsmith so please take this advice with a grain of salt keeping in mind how much you paid for... LOL :eek:
 
Malfunctions have been with Wilson Combat and Colt OEM 8 Mags.

I will try the PowerMags suggested above, and report back. Won't be right away, it will take some time to get them ordered and then get to the range. Have other obligations to tend to as well, like deer season, pheasant trip to South Dakota in a few weeks, things like that :p.

Oh, yeah, I'm supposed to do some work here and there, too.

Any other comments/suggestions are welcome.

Thanks for the help, guys!
 
You might also look at the Tripp extended length 8 round mag. The extra length allows for a stronger spring
 
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