need help selecting a rifle

Q

quiet guy

New member
Hi, I'm considering my 1st rifle, currently only own handguns. I lost my left hand (I'm a natural righty)as a child aprox. 40 years ago. So I have no experience w/ rifles.

I'm looking for an "all purpose" light wgt, relativally short barrel automatic feed rifle that holds at lease six rounds.

Main purposes:
1) additional home protection (main protection guns: .357 mag., 19mm, & 2 .38's)
2) additional camping & backpacking companion (main gun: .41 mag mountain gun)
3) target shooting

I'm not into hunting as a sport,(to each his own) but have run across cayotes, wild dogs, and black bear. Heard of bobcats, never seen one.(I camp & backpack in the Northeast).

Would a scout rifle be a good choice? If so which ones are recommended?

How about handling, I do wear a prostectic device (a hook)that I use rather well if I don't have to rely on it supporting too much weight.

What would be a recommended caliber?

Recoil is not a big issue, but quick and easy reloading is.

Price is not a major concern, but I never want to spent more than I have to.

Any info you share will be most appreciated.
 
At our gun club

I met a guy who, I eventually noticed, was missing his left hand. His prosthesis looked like a model of a hand and he supported the barrel with it. He was shooting a lever-action carbine in about .30 caliber. I think he told me it was a Winchester. He was keeping them all in about a 9" circle at a hundred yards, standing up. He let me shoot it and I let him shoot my Mech Tech 1911 Carbine Conversion Unit. I could see why he liked his carbine, as the open sights were good ones and the gun very accurate and fast to operate.
 
Your specification of a self-loader rules out most scout-type rifles, as most are bolt actions. I don't have first hand experience with them, but it sounds like you might do well with one of the Marlin Camp Carbines in 9mm or .45ACP. Unfortunately, Marlin has stopped making the Camp Carbine, so you would have to find one in unsold stock or find one used. The Camp Carbines use pistol magazines, so reloading would be quick.

The Ruger PC9 (9mm) or PC4 (.40S&W) would be alternatives, but I believe they are significantly heavier than the Marlins. I had a PC4 and now regret letting it go. It was heavy for its size, but quite accurate. The Rugers also use standard Ruger pistol mags.

I'd suggest a synthetic-stocked Mini-14 if you want to move to a rifle round, but Ruger doesn't make magazines holding more than five rounds for it any more, and it can be a hassle finding aftermarket magazines that work flawlessly.

Last thought is that an AR15-type carbine might fit the bill, as it is fairly light weight, and the pistol grip might be easier to handle than a conventional rifle stock. However, this is the most expensive of the options listed here.

I'll be interested to see what others contribute, and I hope you'll let us know what you decide.
 
How about the M1 Carbine?
AR-15?- though I would prefer the lighter weight barrel.


If I couldn't use my left hand, I would want a small light recoiling rifle. I would want several rounds in the magazine since reloading would be more difficult. The magazine should drop freely when you hit the release since you can't grab it with the other hand. I would favor the type of magazine that directly inserts as opposed to the "hook the front and rotate back to lock into place" type.
In case you don't understand what I mean by that...
Some mags you just push straight up and they lock. The AR-15, and I think the M1 Carbine work this way. Some you have to catch the front and rotate back- AK47, M14, FAL(learn something new every day) and I think the Mini-14 work this way. I find it really hard to do this without a firm grip on the rifle AND the other hand on the mag.

I find a pistol grip really helps one handed shooting. The carbine can be had with a pistol grip.
As far as caliber, .30 Carbine is in the same ballpark as .357Magnum and .223 is a little more powerful. I would choose neither for black bear, but you do have a .41Mag which will be easier to use if a bear is chewing on your leg and bears are not very likely to attack.

You really need to try as many as you can since the personal experience is worth more than my tips and I don't know just what you can do with the hook.

Additional thought:
You may find a good bipod useful for target shooting, though it might just get in the way for Home/Camp use.

[Edited by No4Mk1* on 03-15-2001 at 11:20 AM]
 
I like what No4 MK1* said. The M1 Carbine! I dont have one but I have shoot one, and I loved it, it is light and eazy to handle. I was shooting at a 1 gal milk carton at 50 yds and it was dancing all over the place with each shot, and I was using the Iron sights, (peep sight) and I ain`t that good at shooting without a rest. I think you can get hollow point ammo for it. It may not be to cheap to buy, I think the surplus supply has dried up.
Maybe you can find someone that has one that will let you try it out.
Just my .02
 
Consider the H&K SL8-1. It comes with 10 round magazines. The thumbhole stock might give you some extra handling capabilities. Operation is ambidextrous, and it features a 20" barrel. It weighs about 9 or 10 lbs. so with the .223 round there is little felt recoil. The rifle would serve all of the needs you specify.
 
Gentleman, thank you for your quick responces, I'm attending a gun show in Poughkeespie, NY Sat or Sun. for a little "hands on". Starting research on recommended models tonight.

Will keep everyone updated. Any other suggestions?
 
You'd love a Bushmaster Shorty carbine. Just fit it with a Badger Arms (available from Brownell's) tactical charging handle latch. You'll be able to load a magazine and chamber a round, using one hand. Recoil is nominal, and G.I. 20 and 30 rd. mags are plentiful and inexpensive. Plus, they're loads of fun to shoot!
 
another vote for the M1 carbine. mine is really accurate with the iron sights, and recoil is pretty non-existent. only downside is ammo price, compared to russian .223 or .762
 
Legionnaire, thanks for asking, in a word... confused. So many choices, so little time, funds not unlimited, wifes' 2 cents. Seriously though, I have decided to purchase an AR-15, but that's it thus far. So many questions exist, and I'm the type that does a lot of research. I am fimilar w/ http://www.ar-15.com . But as stated, I am a complete novice w/ rifles, so choices & terms like.. muzzle break, dissapator, full lenght handguards, post ban, pre ban, etc. caused me to back up and not commit to quickly.

Then there are the manufacturers: Bushmaster, Armalite, Olympic Arms, Rock River Arms. Last but not least, customizing.

At this time the only thing I have decided on is:
-AR-15 w/16" barrel.

P.S: That H & K SL8-1 is a nice looking, good feeling rifle, surprised I don't hear more about them.
 
I think you've made the wisest choice in rifles by selecting an AR15-type. The options available on this platform are indeed bewildering, as you note.

Your basic choice is between the 20" rifle and (approximately) 16" carbine barrel lengths. There are longer barrels available, but they are primarily for serious target or "sniper" use. The longer barrel lengths have longer handguards (the forend area on a conventionally-configured rifle). The 16" carbines are available with either "shorty" handguards (stubby little things) or the full-length handguards of the "Dissipator" variety. The latter is basically a long-handguard rifle configuration with the barrel lopped off just forward of the front sight. The advantage is mainly longer sight radius. It also makes the weapon a little "front-heavy," which some people like. Since you don't have full use of your supporting arm, though, you might want to avoid a muzzle-heavy weapon.

Pre-ban versus post-ban ARs. Before the federal government banned rifles with such "evil" features as flash suppressors and bayonet lugs, ARs were basically semiauto versions of the military M16 series of weapons. After some combinations of these "evil " features were banned by the 1994 "crime act," manufacturers started selling "post-ban" rifles that were sanitized by the removal of some of the banned features -- usually bayonet lugs, collapsing stocks, and flash suppressors.

If you have the money, a pre-ban rifle is usually deemed better, mostly because of the flash suppressor. If suppression of muzzle flash isn't a concern -- and it only matters when fighting in low light -- a post-ban rifle will save you some money. Pre-ban rifles typically sell for about $500 more than an equivalent post-ban rifle, at least where I live. Obviously, the bayonet lug is useless on a civilian rifle, so it is a non-issue. Magazines and such are interchangeable between pre- and post-ban weapons.

You can "replace" the flash suppressor with a recoil-reducing muzzle brake on a post-ban rifle. The muzzle brake increases noise for the shooter and those around him/her, since it vents expanding gas to the sides of the barrel. Muzzle brakes do slightly reduce recoil, but a .223 doesn't recoil much, anyway. The brakes also give the rifle a more "complete" look, if aesthetics matter on a black rifle.

Collapsible stocks telescope to a shorter length. These are found on pre-ban carbines. This is handy for storage in tight spaces and for carrying in a non-ready mode. Nice to have, but hardly essential.

For your purposes, I'd choose the following:

* 16" barrel, carbine configuration - easier to handle in a defensive context and handier to tote on a backpacking/camping trip.

* Lightweight barrel (old-style skinny barrel or newer "M4" style, as opposed to the thick and heavy barrels commonly encountered) - you state that your prosthetic can't take much weight.

* The Badger Arms charging handle already mentioned - makes one-handed operation easier.

* Personally, I'd go with a muzzle brake if you choose a post-ban, since it would make one-handed control a little easier.

* On a post-ban, choose the standard solid stock over the fake "telescoping" stocks seen on the Walter Mittyish faux "CAR15s" and "M4geries." These stocks don't actually collapse (another "evil" feature!), so they are only for looks. The solid stock is more comfortable and more honest. If you have shorter arms, you might consider retrofitting with an A1 (earlier production) stock. These are, I believe, 5/8" shorter than the current A2 stock.

* I'd go with the chrome-lined barrel. Makes the gun more reliable and corrosion resistant, though usually a bit less accurate.

* Take your choice between the carry-handle and the flattop design. The latter is much better for mounting optics or red-dot sights, but watch the weight when you start adding sighting devices. If you plan on using the (excellent!) iron sights on the AR, I'd advise buying a standard model with carry handle. The A2 sights are easier to adjust than the earlier A1 sights sometimes encountered, but the A1 sights are more rugged. I think either is fine on a shorty carbine, though I prefer the more refined A2 sight on a 20" rifle.

Hope this helps, and best of luck on your purchase!

Mike
 
MikeWrite, thanks for all the time and info. You definitly cleared up a lot of confusion. One additional question?

Manufacturers, any preferences? Why? I've had the following, amongest others mentioned to me.

Colt, Rock River, Bushmaster, Armalite, Olympic Arms, and H & K.

Are any significantly better or worse than the others? Any Rolls Royce or Hugos here?
 
All the makers you mention produce quality AR-type rifles, save HK. I'm not aware of HK making any AR15-pattern rifles, at least not for the civilian market. The .223 HK weapons with which I am familiar are scaled-down versions of the G3 battle rifle, which is a different animal entirely, and would probably be a poor choice for you due to weight and charging handle location. If I am wrong, however, I would happily accept a correction.

The rest of the makers you mention all produce quality products. You see squabbling between partisans of the various manufacturers, but the basic design is the same. I'd concern myself with getting the right configuration first, then worry about manufacturers.

That said, the Rock River, Colt, and Armalite are, for the most part, at the upper end of the AR price spectrum (along with the expensive Wilson Combat stuff). Quality is usually great, though Colt varies from time to time in my experience. Bushmasters and Olympics seem a bit more reasonably priced, and the quality is generally excellent, with a slight edge going to Bushmaster. Also out there is the DPMS line, which seems very well-made, though a bit more oriented toward pure target shooting than the Bushmasters and Olympics. Bushmaster certainly seems to have a amassed a greater number of rabidly loyal users than any of the others.

I personally avoid Colt products because of that company's political "appeasement" stance, but you may not feel the same. Also, some Colt parts are not "mil-spec" and thus some parts are not interchangeable with other makes, limiting you to Colt parts. Not a big deal unless you plan on swapping upper receivers and such in the future -- but, then again, that's part of the fun of the AR system!

Since you state that money isn't a huge issue, pass up the very well-priced Olympic Arms ".223 Plinker." I've recommended it to people who are looking for an inexpensive light-duty weapon (it is much better than a Mini-14), but there's no need for you to buy a carbine with cast receivers when you can afford one made of the better forgings. The Plinker wears a heavy barrel, which may not be as well-suited to your needs as a lighter barrel. Also, the bore of this carbine is not chrome-lined, which may make a little difference on a wet camping trip.

You might also run across a "sorta AR15" carbine called the "Carbon 15" made by Professional Ordnance. It is a very lightweight weapon (under 4 pounds!), but its reputation for reliability is very mixed. I'd avoid it and suffer the additional couple of pounds for a "real" AR.

Were I in your shoes, I'd take a long look at Bushmaster's new M4 knockoff, the "XM15E2S Postban" (why they insist on such silly and confusing names for civilian rifles is beyond me). It needs to have the silly faux telestock replaced with a good solid stock, but other than that, it would seem ideal for your purposes (once you add the Badger Arms charging handle). It is available in both carry-handle and flattop designs, wears excellent A2 sights, has a chrome-lined lightweight M4 barrel, and a permanent muzzle brake. You can view it at http://www.bushmaster.com.

Any pre-ban M4 copy or other light-barrel carbine would also meet your needs, though they are usually much pricier than a post-ban version. You do get the flash suppressor and the collapsing stock, though, if those features interest you.

Mike
 
I had forgotten about that particular "plastic fantastic!" Thanks for the link. Still, with a 20" barrel and weighing over 8 pounds unloaded, the SL8-1 seems excessively bulky and heavy for a 10-shot .223. I think a shorty AR would be a much better choice. They are lighter, handier, less expensive, and more adaptable to personal needs/preferences. Besides, good 20- and 30-round magazines are easily and cheaply available for the AR, in contrast to the HK.

By the way, I normally use and recommend 20-round magazines. But since reloading is going to be more time-consuming for you than someone with both hands available, you might give some thought to investing in 30-round magazines instead. That way, you'll find yourself reloading the weapon a bit less often than with the 20-rounders.

Mike
 
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