need help I.D'n this old Black powder rifle

C

cplane

New member
My brother has acquired an old muzzle loader from our elderly uncle a couple of years ago shortly before he passed away, he was in his 70's. I remember my uncle telling us how he and another uncle had been handed down the old rifle from their grandfather (my great, great grandfather)and they had cut about 12 inches off of the end of the barrel because it was so long. It is still about 6 feet long even after the chopping. It is an old cap and ball rifle with what looks like "J.Bishop" stamped on the side of the receiver. I doubt that it would be in good enough shape to ever be operated again but we were curious as to the history of it and what sort of value it might have. It is a south carolina hand me down. If anyone has any info on it , we would apreciate it--Thanks--C.L.

[Edited by cplane on 04-18-2001 at 04:36 AM]
 
Will try to check my books tonight.

If this is a southern rifle, I take it that it has iron hardware and not brass?

Does it have a patchbox on the stock or a greasehole?

Flint or percussion?

Any pipes (ramrod thimbles) and if so, are they iron?

Any sideplate or is there just a bolt on the side opposite of the lock?

Any other markings?
 
Gary, There is no brass and it is a cap style firing mechanism. The stock has no side plate. The ram rod is iron. It may be something other than J. marked on it. The J is barely readable an therfore may be some other letter,But it looks like a J.The Bishop is definately there. Thanks for the reply--C.L. I will post a picture later---
 
I had my brother bring the gun by my house and after checking it out again I find that I was mistaken in my earlier post. It does have some brass on it. The trigger guard is brass with a primitive starburst looking design engraved on it. The butt plate on the stock is also brass. There is no ram rod but there is a place for one . The side plate is carbon steel as is the hammer and trigger . It is definately a J.Bishop stamped in the side plate. This is a smooth bore barrel like a shotgun with the percusion type nipple.Looks about the diameter of a 20 gage. I am posting some photos at this link-- http://members.aol.com/cplane460/gun.jpg/ http://members.aol.com/cplane460/gun1.jpg/ http://members.aol.com/cplane460/gun3.jpg/ http://members.aol.com/cplane460/gun4.jpg/ http://members.aol.com/cplane460/gun5.jpg/ http://members.aol.com/cplane460/gun6.jpg/ http://members.aol.com/cplane460/gun7.jpg/
 
That gun was made for humane goose hunters who couldn't stand to shoot the birds; they knocked them down with the barrel.

Seriously, I find two listings of "J. Bishop". One was a lock maker in Philadelphia c. 1790, which is too early if the cap lock is original. The other was a gun and lock maker in London, England, around 1840, which would be more in line with a date for a caplock. However, it looks to me like the lock was originally a flintlock as I can see holes that look like they were for the frizzen spring and screw, so the Philadelphia Bishop may be the right one. If so, he probably made and sold locks to local gunsmiths who used them on their own guns.

That buttplate and some of the general outlines look more like a military musket than a civilian firearm. This would also be in line with the iron ramrod (again if original), as civilian guns usually had wooden ramrods.

I have the feeling that this is one of many antique arms that are the bane of collectors, while being fascinating at the same time, and that is the built or rebuilt rifle or shotgun. Ingenious local craftsmen and gunsmiths took whatever was available in the way of barrels, stocks, and locks (yes, that is where we get the expression "lock, stock and barrel", which means the whole gun) and made up whatever a customer wanted or whatever could be sold for a few dollars or a beaver skin, or whatever. These drive collectors nuts because parts contradict one another, are from all different periods, and the guns are impossible to pigeon hole in the way collectors love.

HTH

Jim
 
Yeah, I second the opinion that it was proabably a lock that was converted over to percussion. The shape, style, etc., scream conversion, as does the bolt on the off-side of the lock.
 
The butt plate is very like that of a Brown Bess or similar type military musket, and I think that is where the stock started out. I doubt the barrel was originally made that length. I think a customer wanted a very long barrel, maybe for punt gunning (shooting from a "punt", a small boat that was rowed slowly into the midst of a flock of waterfowl), so a gunsmith made one, either with a mandrel or by welding two (or more?) barrels together.

Anyway, it is interesting.

Jim
 
Would anybody have an idea to it's monetary value? It would not ever be for sale but it would be interesting to know what a collector would think of it's value . Thanks for all the replys. Even though there are a few southern gentlemen left in SC , I don't think any of them would want to hit a goose over the head !:)
 
Concur with Jim Keenan

The lockplate was once drilled out which shows that it was once a flintlock. The buttplate does indeed appear to be that of a India Pattern Brown Bess. While I could not see much of the trigger guard (need a bottom shot), it's quite possible that too was from a Brown Bess.

It's not a Southern Poor Boy but, as suggested above, is built from salvaged parts. This was a common practice in those days.
 
It is nearly impossible to set a price on a one off item like that, but hanging over the mantle, it makes a great conversation piece. If you ever should want to get rid of it, an idea might be donation to a local museum and claim a value of about half your income for tax purposes. (You're from the IRS? I was only kidding. Honest!)

Jim
 
Went through Bailey's Gunmaker's of London last nite and found there's about four J. Bishops of London (early 1800s to 1840).
 
Thanks Gary and Jim and Mike,If any one had any kind of idea what the old clunker was worth, we would like to know. Jim, I sometimes feel like I do work for the IRS , As much as I send them every week! The donation thing sounds like a ringer! :) Thanks every one--C.L.
 
Now that I'm working from the comfort of my home and within proximity of my library..

I can tell you that it was from Howard Blackmore's book that I got the information (Gunmakers of London 1350-1850, Shumway, York, PA. 1986). Blackmore lists the following Bishops in London:

James, Bishop, Gunmaker & Armourer, 4 Long Lane, Borough, 1805-1808.
John, Bishop, apprentice to Williams Huggins, 1708 (doglock era?),
John Bishop, Apprentice to George White in Gunmakers Co., 1749,
John Bishop, Apprentice to John Brazier in Gumakers Co., 1753.

There's also a John Bishop of Shoe Lane, but he was around born around 1627, too early for that lock plate.
 
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