need help finding out model and age of my S&W

B

bullseye shooter

Inactive
Hello I was just wondering if some one could give me a little help identifying my 38 S&W revolver. I bought the weapon from my father in law back in the early 80's. My father in law told me that the weapon was originally carried by the military police back in WWI and the it originally had either a 6" or a 8" barrel. He said he had taken it to a German gun smith back in the early 1950's where he cut the barrel down to 3" and had the hammer and trigger polished. However if you look at the front sight which is fix ramp i don't see how that could possible.

The grips are checkered, not sure if they are original over all the gun is in good shape the serial # 26XXX , six round cylinder, it has another number located under the barrel just above the ejector rod that number is 668XXX, fixed front site,and rear grooved site. It has a P stamped on the left top corner of the top strap at the rear of the frame. it does have the S&W trade marks and cal. stamped on it but no model number. any help identifying what model it is would be appreciated.
 
"P" on the frame indicates acceptance by the U.S. Military.

Sounds like it is a WWII so-called "Victory" model in .38 S&W or possibly .38 Special on which someone chopped the barrel.

Many of these guns in .38 S&W were sent to Great Britain during WWII.

The fact that there is a "P" on the frame tells me it was a U.S. military gun at one time. Is there, by any chance, "U.S. PROPERTY" stamped on the topstrap?

You identified it as a .38 S&W. By that did you mean it is a .38 calibre revolver manufactured by Smith & Wesson, or that it is chambered in .38 S&W? Many of these made for domestic use were chambered in .38 Special.

As Mike Irwin said, CLEAR pictures are required, as well as confirmation of what calibre it is. At least one pic of each side should show the entire gun; Other close-ups should show any and all markings.
 
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If the caliber is actually 38 S&W (no "Special") and it is a swing out cylinder "Hand Ejector" model, most likely it's a WW II British service revolver.

The vast majority of them looked like this before they got cut up after the war (which apparently happened to most of them). Unfortunately they are often cut back so far that the ejector rod lug is lost and that can make the gun unreliable. Such a gun has minimal monetary value although dealers will price them sky high hoping for a sucker.

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I suspect there is a letter V prefix to the serial. For some reason many folks ignore the letters in S&W serials. These are called Victory Models.
 
I have a RAAF .38.

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It's at the top and actually looks alot better than the picture shows (in fact all three .38 S&Ws shown do.)

5 inch barrel and came with 'trench art' grips that had New Guinea and Australian shillings and six pences in the grips (dated 1939 to 1942 and they are all silver!)

I put the wood grips on myself so to shoot the gun some. Shoots dead on and is very accurate with 146gr .38 S&W ammo.

Deaf
 
Regarding the numbers...

bullseye shooter said:
...the serial # 26XXX , six round cylinder, it has another number located under the barrel just above the ejector rod that number is 668XXX...
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These numbers should match. There are three likely explanations:
  • The barrel is not original.
  • You're reading the number inside the yoke cut in the frame, the one visible with the cylinder open. On most older Smiths, this number is NOT the serial number; it's a meaningless assembly number. The definitive serial number is on the butt. You may have to remove the stocks (grips) to see it.
  • The serial number on the butt has been mutilated or partially obscured by clumsy refinishing, and you're reading it wrong. I've seen a number of refinished Victories or British Service Revolvers with serial numbers that were VERY difficult to read correctly.
This gun should have also had the serial on the rear cylinder face, but cylinder numbers were stamped more shallowly than the others on the gun, and are the most likely to be totally obscured by a poorly-done refinish.
SaxonPig said:
I suspect there is a letter V prefix to the serial.
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Same here; IIRC the British serial numbers start in the mid-800,000 range and then reset at V1, so a number in the mid-20,000 range should have a prefix.

S&W did not use serial numbers with 7 numerical digits; on older revolvers, they started back at 1 and added an alphabetical prefix when the number passed 999,999. They would omit the excess preceding zeroes- i.e. they would use V1 rather than V000001, V100 rather than V000100, and so on.

The prefix may be on the opposite side of the lanyard loop from the numbers. If the gun has no lanyard loop (shown in Deaf and Saxon's pictures), there is likely a plug where the loop used to be.

If the gun's serial is in the upper 6 digits (668XXX), the prefix may be "SV" rather than "V", to reflect the use of an improved hammer block design.
 
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The number on the underside of the barrel is the serial number; at that time S&W put the serial on the cylinder and barrel in addition to the butt of the frame.

668xxx with no letter prefix or suffix would have been an M&P, made in 1938 or 1939, probably in .38 Special. S&W went to the "V" because with wartime production, serial numbers had gone over six digits, so 999999 was followed by V 1.

M&P revolvers, both "Victory"* models and "Pre-Victory" models were used by U.S. forces in WWII. Most Army MP's carried the M1911A1, but some, and some USMC MP's carried the S&W.

*Technically, S&W called only the .38 Special the Victory Model; revolvers in .38 S&W for the Allies were called the ".38/200 Model." Collectors generally call any revolver with a "V" serial number a "Victory Model."

Jim
 
668xxx with no letter prefix or suffix would have been an M&P, made in 1938 or 1939, probably in .38 Special. S&W went to the "V" because with wartime production, serial numbers had gone over six digits, so 999999 was followed by V 1.
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Let's not forget the "P" stamped on the frame per OP. That would generally mean that it is U.S. issue.
 
gyvel said:
Let's not forget the "P" stamped on the frame per OP. That would generally mean that it is U.S. issue.
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It could also be the first initial of the OP's FIL, Patrick. ;) I've seen some peculiar garage-workshop mods to old refinished milsurp Smiths.

Truth is, this is all conjecture until the OP checks back in, and hopefully posts pictures.
 
I agree on waiting for pictures or a better description, but that serial number (with no V) is too early for either U.S. or Allied military issue. I suspect there is a "V" in that serial number.

Jim
 
Hello all, sorry I didn't get these pic's out with my original post but had trouble re-sizing them, So as to some of the replies there is no v in front of or behind an of the numbers. as for the caliber it is a 38 S&W not a special. There is no lanyard loop nor plug where a loop may have been. anyhow here are some pics let me hear what you think
 

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bullseye shooter said:
...there is no v in front of or behind an of the numbers. as for the caliber it is a 38 S&W not a special.
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The .38 S&W chambering, the gun's features, and the revolver's backstory strongly suggest that this is a WWII (not WWI) .38/200 British Service Revolver. The serial number is still a question mark.
James K said:
...that serial number (with no V) is too early for either U.S. or Allied military issue. I suspect there is a "V" in that serial number.
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James is absolutely correct.

I've had a chance to check my literature, and the British serial numbers supposedly start around 680,000, rather than 800,000 as I posted earlier.

However, my (and James') general point is still the same: both 668XXX and 26XXX are outside of the WWII serial number range unless there is a "V" prefix. According to the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, 3rd edition, by Supica & Nahas, the WWII military K frame serial number ranges are c. 680,000-999,999 (no prefix), V1-V769,000, and SV769,001-SV811,832. A large number of commercial guns are intermingled in the initial no-prefix serial range, as S&W sold many guns to the Brits prior to Pearl Harbor and the suspension of commercial production. The initial British .38/200's are cosmetically similar to commercial models, except chambered in .38 S&W. Later guns had a number of changes to reduce cost and expedite production.

668XXX (no prefix) could be the serial number of a prewar commercial .38 Military & Police Model of 1905, 4th Change. If one overlooks the modified barrel, some of this gun's features are consistent with a mid-1930's commercial Model of 1905, except that this model would be chambered in .38 Special and not .38 S&W.

OTOH the gun's features are wrong for a S&W K frame with a serial number of 26XXX (no prefix), which would be an early .38 M&P Model of 1902.
bullseye shooter said:
There is no lanyard loop nor plug where a loop may have been.
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IMHO the gun has been refinished. This is evident in the rounded or "dished" edges of the sideplate. On refinished WWII Victories and .38/200's, some gunsmiths did a better job of disguising the plug than others.

The primary hallmark of a plugged lanyard loop hole is that the serial number will still be off-center, usually to the rear, to clear the now-disguised hole; as I posted earlier, the "V" or "SV" prefix was sometimes stamped on the opposite side of the hole from the number. OTOH commercial S&W's without lanyard loops have the serial number more-or-less centered on the butt.

Other tidbits...

The barrel is a rather creative custom gunsmithing job. :) I'm almost certain that no standard-production S&W has ever been made with a barrel like that.

The jeweled or turned finish on the hammer and trigger is not original either.

The stocks (grips) appear to be reproductions of very early 20th-century (c. 1910) wood K frame stocks. The genuine article would have diamond-shaped escutcheons around the screw holes. Very early WWII military guns have similar checkered wood stocks, but with small circular silver S&W-trademark medallions at the tops; later WWII guns, and the bulk of WWII production, have smooth and featureless wood stocks with no medallions or checkering (as in Saxon's picture).
 
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Good morning everyone, I appreciate all the input. So I had a little time this morning and took the grips off the gun I did not find any serial numbers under the grips. How ever I did find the Letter V stamped on the upper portion of the frame (left side if you were shooting the weapon) almost where the grip would end. then down toward the middle on the lower frame there was a 1 stamped also on the left side. The right side had three stamps on it in 3 different places. a number 3 along with a small emblem on the bottom of the frame just above the tension adjustment screw . and the number 8 down low toward the butt just below the tension spring screw. Then it had what appears to be a J right below the pin that sticks into the wood grip to hold it in place No series of numbers in order. I did look very closely for a lanyard plug both inside the frame and on the outside and low and behold when i used better light there it was a plugged lanyard hole, and I must say a very nice job of hiding it, even now i have to look for it using the right light to catch the reflection of the plug ring.
So after all the great help, and feed back from all you folks and the use of better lighting I overlooked the obvious and have found more hints to help in this quest. On the cylinder face I did find the letter P next to one cylinder hole then on the next a letter V and the next had a series of numbers 668XXX which which is the same Number which I found under the barrel above the the ejector rod. Sorry for the run around. So what can youo tell me now?
 
Is there no number on the bottom of the grip? That is where the serial number should be, but it is possible that the gunsmith, after plugging the lanyard loop hole, polished down the butt and removed the serial number.

Anyway, the V on the cylinder indicates that the true serial number is V668xxx. That would date it to before the adoption of the new hammer block, so the absence of the "S" is normal.

A point that is sometimes confusing is that S&W hand stamped the "V" (and the "S" if appropriate) on all the frames when the frame was being made; later in the manufacturing process, the number was applied. That sometimes results in the V/S being a bit removed from the serial number, and not obviously a part of it.

Jim
 
No there is on stamped number on the bottom of the butt, is the number on the cylinder and the matching number under the barrel a serial number or somethiong else ?
 
Is there no number on the bottom of the grip? That is where the serial number should be, but it is possible that the gunsmith, after plugging the lanyard loop hole, polished down the butt and removed the serial number.
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Does this then indicate OP has a gun with a "defaced" serial number?
 
If there's no serial number stamped ANYWHERE ON THE FRAME, yes.
Denis
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OP indicates that there is a number on the underside of the barrel, and a matching number on the cylinder. Neither one of those parts is considered to be a frame. The serial number on a Smith of that vintage is stamped on the bottom of the butt; It's gone. To me that would indicate a "defaced serial number."
 
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Exactly.
If it's not on the frame, it's an "altered or defaced", or obliterated, serial & what's on the barrel & cylinder don't count, for ATF's legal purposes.
Denis
 
That is the letter of the law.
In a case here, a shooter got his stolen gun back because the crook did not know all the places that a S&W of that age was serialized. He got the butt and maybe others, but he did not get them all. (There is a serial number on the back of the extractor in many series.)
But that was a good many years ago, when the original owner was assumed to be honest and the thief a criminal.
 
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