Need help finding info on late 19th century revolvers

D

dodgeboy

Inactive
I need some help finding info on some late 19th century revolvers that my Dad has. Any kind of info would be appreciated (model number, facts/history, worth, etc.) There's also a single shot .22 in the bunch. We fully intend to keep these in the family, as they were his dad's/grandpa's, but I sure would like to know more about them. Here is all of the info I have:

Obviously, these were not stored properly. There's quite a bit of rust/corrosion on them, which makes them even harder to identify. The plating doesn't seem to be flaking off on any of them, so I imagine they could be cleaned up with the proper solvent/tools.

Gun 1 (this one obviously isn't a revolver, and probably isn't from the 1800s):
HOPKINS & ALLEN ARMS CO., NORWICH, CT, U.S.A.
“972” on the bottom rear of the barrel. “972” on the front of the handle, which is a sandwich of steel in the middle (where the 972 is) and probably walnut handle.
At the top of the handle there is a brass button (each side) embossed with a stylized “HA”. The sight on the open end of the barrel says “Lyman Reg US Pat Off”.
The barrel is 10” long, .22 caliber.
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Gun 2:
Across the top of the barrel: “Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass U.S.A. Pat’d Jan. 17 & 24. 65” Second line:“July 11. 65. Aug. 24. 69. Feb 20. 1877. Reissue July 25. 1871”
In front of the rear sight: “ Pat’d Apr. 20. 73 (or 75?)” and “ Dec. 18. 1877”
“41xxx” on the bottom of the handle, probably a serial number.
“S&W” on both sides of the handle, carved or molded?
5-shot revolver.
Using the same measuring technique with calipers as used on the H&A .22 (where it measured slightly over .22), this measures .309” – using the same logic as the H&A, assuming no rust, it would be a .30 caliber.
Very short/light single-action only trigger.
1_r.jpg

1_l.jpg



Gun 3:
Pearl handled, nickel plated, hammerless, 5-shot revolver.
Full DA trigger and trigger guard.
“55xx” stamped on the bottom of the handle.
Top of barrel is difficult to read due to rust: “Smith & Wesson xxxxxx Pat’d Feby xxx” Second line: “20. 77. Dec 16. xxxxxxxxxx” then looks like “US TWO Aug. 4 85.”
In front of the rear sight, there’s about a 1” long pin lying on top of the barrel that has a scooped out part in front of it, like a place to depress this pin. It's gummed up and we didn't want to force it.
Grip safety.
Barrel diameter measures .360”
2_r.jpg



Gun 4:
“Iver Johnson’s Arms & Cycle Works (works is covered with rust)” Second line: “Fitchburg, Mass. U.S.A.”
Handle has some nice detail, including what looks like an owl with a ring around it at the top.
5-shot revolver. Hammerless.
Safety is built into the trigger as a little latch that gets depressed when you pull the trigger.
On bottom of handle: “Pat’d Apr. 6. (can’t read year – may be 86) Feb 15. 8x” Second line: “May 10. 87. Mar 13. 88. Aug.” Third line: “ 25. 96. Pat’s Pending”.
Barrel diameter measures .309”
3_r.jpg

3_l.jpg



Thanks in advance for any info you can provide! I really appreciate it!

Dave
 
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I replied to the duplicate thread in the "Revolvers" subforum but my post vanished. :(

Gun #2 is a Smith & Wesson .32 Single Action aka Model 1-1/2 Centerfire; please note that this is different from the earlier Model 1-1/2 tip-up rimfire revolver. The gun was produced from 1878 to 1892 with a serial number range of 1-97574, so this example was probably made in the mid-1880s. The red mottled rubber grips are actually somewhat unusual and sought-after, and despite the rust, this gun is in better shape than most examples I've seen. :)

Gun #3 is a S&W .32 Safety Hammerless aka New Departure aka "Lemon Squeezer". (The first two names were used interchangeably in factory literature, while the last name is 19th-century slang describing the grip safety's similarity to a culinary tool. ;) ) This example is a 1st Model made between 1888-1902; the serial number range is 1-91417, so this one was most likely made in the first year of production. Roughly 243,000 of these guns were made in 3 major variations, so they're not particularly rare or valuable unless they're in very high condition and/or have the rare 2" or 6" barrel, but this one appears to have the commonplace and unremarkable 3" barrel. Yes, you're supposed to depress the "scoop" to open the cylinder, but given the overall poor condition of the gun, I agree that it's probably unwise to force it. CAUTION: do NOT dry-fire this gun, they're notorious for having weak firing pins, and replacements are very hard to find because most .32 Safety Hammerless parts guns got that way because the firing pin broke. :(

Both guns are chambered in .32 Smith & Wesson aka ".32 Short", which is largely obsolescent and generally hard to find. A few commercial loads are still available, but they use smokeless powder, which is not recommended for S&W revolvers made in the blackpowder era like these two. If you want to shoot these guns, I recommend light-duty blackpowder handloads.
 
The H&A single shot target pistol was made from 1910 to 1915, when H&A went out of business. They were reportedly quite accurate, and were intended to compete with the several Stevens target pistols of roughly the same era. There was also a version having an 18" barrel and a skeleton shoulder stock.

Yours looks pretty good, at least on the right side, and if in that condition all over would probably we worth $300+ to the right buyer.

Sorry, Chris, but gun #3 is the Safety Hammerless .38, Second Model, which was made 1887-1890, serial range 5001-42483, so it would date to 1887. I would need to see a good picture of that barrel marking to try to determine what it means. Some were tested by the Army and marked US on the left side, but they were in the 41xxx range.

The gun is opened by depressing the button at the rear of the top strap; the lever ahead of the rear sight is pressed to remove the cylinder.

If those are genuine mother of pearl grips, they would be worth more than the gun in that condition.

Jim
 
these guys know way more than I do... but your guns are of the era I collect...

The single shot looks to be in great shape, from what we can see... they were built on the Hopkins & Allen Safety Police revolver frames, & use the Safety Police pinch type barrel latch, & also the revolvers target grips... the S&W 1.5 ( 2nd gun ) looks in pretty good shape, has unfortunately quite a few drag lines from the safety catch that retains the cylinder, these were usually very good quality guns... I have several of them, one just like this, with the "red" grips, though my grips are slightly better figured ( if you are removing these grips, be very carefull, they are very collectable, & very brittle ) the "lemon Sqeezer" ( 3rd gun ) is pretty rough, the grips appear to be real mother of pearl, & the grips could be worth more than the gun... but are pretty stained up, so they aren't worth as much as if they were unstained, & or if they had the S&W medallions... the Iver is in pretty "normal" to rough condition, the interesting point on that revolver ( as far as I'm concerned ) was the "Glock like" trigger safety

the 1st & 2nd guns are definately worth quite a bit more than the 3rd & 4th...
 
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BTW... I shoot all of mine... & your 1st 2 are probably quite shootable...

personally I'd use a rimfire like Aquila Colibri's or Super Colibris... I would not shoot high velocity 22's in it, though the action could likely take it, I just wouldn't personally because of it's age...

http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#colibri____-_1-2-4_8-16-32

the 2nd gun is one, being a solid gun in 32 S&W ( provided yours is in good shape ) are one of the few guns of this age, that I feel are safe for factory ammo... I still start all my guns out on impulse power handloads, & work them up according to function, but I actually use one of these for daily carry use once in a while... this particular one of mine had the barrel shortened long ago, & had the barrel renickeled at the time ( long enough ago, that the barrel wear matches the rest of the gun ) my other is a match to yours, & about in the same shape ( at least cosmetically from your pictures ) & it is also capable of regular use of factory load level handloads
 
Values - my opinion

Any kind of info would be appreciated (model number, facts/history, worth, etc.)
Click to expand...

Worth (somewhat of an opinion but I do collect S&Ws)

1) H&A - single shot - fairly scarce gun, $400 to $600. I read that only 2500 were produced from 1906 to 1915. I really like it and never saw one before to be honest.

2) S&W 1 1/2 32 centerfire. The 1 1/2 stems from the frame and model to be a compromise between the S&W #1 frame and the S&W #2 frame. Common gun and is an antique per ATF. SN is the number on the butt for these. Value - $200 to $300 with the higher value being possible due to the grips. The red mottled type (your type) is the rarest grip variation for these other than special order grips such as ivory, pearl, etc. I read that this grip type was only for blued guns which would help explain their rarity today (blued guns of that era are more rare than nickel). If original to the gun the SN should be written on the right side in pencil or possibly stamped.

3) S&W 38 new departure aka Safety Hammerless 38 aka "lemon squeezer"
This gun is also an antique per ATF so all pre 1899 guidelines apply IF we can trust Mr Keenan regarding production year which could be considered gambling :p. Value for this one, if the grips are just imitation (condition kills it) - $100. If the grips are pearl and nice without chips or cracks - $200 for gun and grips. If factory, these grips would most likely display S&W medallions.

4) Iver Johnson - I believe this model to the safety hammer. These are very common in 32 S&W and not particulary valuable. I would say its worth $50. Anything more would be an assumption. It doesn't have great condition but its better than some. As far as the grips, there is some speculation about which way the owl faces can denote an antique provided that the grips are original of course. On these kind of revolvers, the SN is on the bottom of the trigger guard and on the left side of the frame under the grips vs having the SN of the butt, common to many other revolvers.

As far as confusing S&W 32 and 38 top breaks - a little trick I learned since some pics are awful is that the 32 DAs (DA or new departure) have a trigger guard which extends a smidge farther than the front face of the cylinder, while on a 38, due to the longer cartridge, the cylinder is equal length or longer when comparing the face to the front of the trigger guard.
 
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FWIW, in my limited experience, S&W factory pearl grips with medallions are less common than those without. That might have been because of the high failure rate when trying to drill mother-of-pearl. Also, since they were usually not numbered to the gun, it is often hard or impossible to determine whether pearl grips are factory or not. I think unusual factory grips would be in the records and would be mentioned in an S&W factory letter, but I have been told that may not always be the case either

Part of that problem grows from the way special grips were handled. Wood grips, and even gutta percha grips, were installed on the frame before its final finishing and polished down with the frame, thus insuring a close match. Grips were numbered to the frame so they would be put back on the right frame after the frame was given a final polish and blued or nickeled. But pearl grips were made up in advance and then hand fitted to each gun as required, after the gun was finished, so there was no need to number them.

One thing is sure. Pearl grips were much more common in the old days (pre-WWI) than they are today. That is due in part to changing tastes (and maybe Patton's remark!), and in part to the fact that the type of mollusc that produces MOP thick enough to be used for grips is scarce and I don't think is any longer commercially harvested.

Jim
 
It looks like Winchester 73's evaluation on the H&A was about right.

I liked the statement that "BUYER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR KNOWING ALL LAWS PERTAINING TO THIS TRANSACTION." I hate to tell the guy, but every federal, state, and local gun sales law that I know of puts the responsibility for compliance on the seller, not the buyer.

Jim
 
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