Need advice on practice vs. self defense

D

Doc Holliday 1950

New member
Everyone. Please come in & tell me your
thoughts about shooting the same weight
practice ammo & the same weight self
defense. I bought 250 rds of FMJ 124 grain
Ammo & 250 rds. each of Speer 124 grain
HP's & same amount of Federal HST 124
grain HP's. Does this make sense??
 
If you are shooting under 15 yards, the difference isn't going to matter much on SD targets, COM.
I see the reasoning, but are all the loads the same velocity as well?

You're reason is so that they all have the same POI (point of impact)?
 
I often carry a S&W 442. Shooting full house .38+p makes no sense. At least for my hand. So I practice with light wadcutter loads to get a feel for the grip and pointing. i have put several wadcutters through the pistol. The two times I have run a cylinder of +p were enough for me to realize that I pointed the same and hit about the same as with the light wadcutters. I hope muscle memory will carry the day for me.

David
 
I believe that at SD distances the change in POI would be very small based on differing weights. Bullet design can also effect POI so definitely compare the ones you choose. When I practice with my EDC I dont shoot for bullseyes anyway. I try to shoot the best groups I can as fast as I can fire 2 rounds from the holster. Point and shoot double tap.
 
Your not shooting precision bullseye. You are practicing SD shooting. As long as you have fully checked your gun with your chosen SD round for 100% reliable function you are good to go with fmj range ammo for practice.
 
The devil is always in the details. Pay attention to the details and you solve most problems.

Anything that reduces or eliminates a variable is something that goes to your advantage.

Take up handloading & save yourself a bundle. You can duplicate your best defensive load for next to nothing extra.
 
I was told that FMJ Ammo would go
Right threw a person doing extreme
danger to others unfortunately in
it's path. Using a hollow point
Ammo the Ammo would expand and
create a rather large hole stopping the
BG. Definitely don't want that!

Using FMJ Ammo vs JHP or BHP
Ammo as SD sounds insane to me.
The FMJ Ammo is 124 grain & the
HP same weight.
Does anyone out there agree with
this?
 
I don't think anybody can give you a definitive answer on this Doc.

A friend used to use the acronym DOTS for Depends On The Situation.

Is the bad guy 300 pounds or 135? Does your round hit a bone or only soft tissue? Is he wearing a T-shirt or a leather jacket over a sweater etc. etc.

I think buying all the same weight ammunition might make the recoil similar during practice which could be good but I also think if you're ever in a self defense situation you probably won't notice the recoil, there will be other things on your mind.

So I'm pretty much failing to give you an answer here. If you have time take note of what's behind the BG but I'm not at all sure you'll have the luxury of being able to do that.

Lastly:
Using a hollow point Ammo the Ammo would expand and create a rather large hole stopping the BG. Definitely don't want that!
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Ummm. Why wouldn't you want that?

Personally I'd go with the hollow points for self defense but shot placement would probably trump ammo selection by a pretty large factor. Maybe some of the LEO's here can provide better info.
 
Error on my half. Definitely would want to use HP's
so it would stop the BG and not go through him & 4
Guys lined up in a row. tired last night when I
Posted this question. Anyone following my last few posts
Would understand my questions. Started when I went
Hunting for my first Semi & since I know zip about
them, it became the TFL to go to start me in the
right direction. Finally went to my younger
Brother-law our expert in weapons.
Next set of questions will be after I finally get
to the Range to Try the Glock out..
I Spent weeks researching
which would be best for me & also which
one my unbelievably beautiful wife could
use in a pinch.
 
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Doc Holliday 1950 said:
Using FMJ Ammo vs JHP or BHP
Ammo as SD sounds insane to me.
The FMJ Ammo is 124 grain & the
HP same weight.
Click to expand...
Some people carry FMJ because it's less expensive and that's what they can afford. Others carry it because that's all they are allowed to have (NJ). While may don't think FMJ is the optimum choice for self-defense, most would agree that being armed is better than being unarmed.

As to the weight question you posed: You are looking only at weight, and ignoring velocity. Two cartridges carrying the same weight bullet may shoot entirely differently, in terms of both point of aim/point of impact, and both felt recoil and muzzle flip. And, if you might be using the self-defense rounds at night, you should also consider muzzle flash. If your FMJ practice rounds are standard velocity and the self-defense rounds are +P, they won't shoot the same even though the bullets are the same weight.

And, as has been noted already, at 15 feet away it probably won't make any difference.
 
Attendance at a good training facility on using a firearms for self defense will help to dispense with the abundance of fiction and hearsay on the internet.
 
The real concern is if it affects the point of impact (POI) for your chosen point of aim (POA). In that case you might have some issues. Honestly I haven't found a difference in POI between even 115 gr and 124 gr +P at say 10-15 yds and inward. I haven't shot 147 gr in a few years, but I do remember that being a tad different in terms of POI compared to the 115 gr cheapo stuff. It usually has to be a significant difference in velocity or bullet weight to notice the difference at what most would consider SD distances.

The best thing to do is test this for yourself. Check the POI with your chosen carry load and then with your range ammo. That will be a more reliable answer than what we can give you.
 
Doc, Yes. It does make sense. Recoil, etc. will be similar. Shooting carefully at,say, 25 yards with a handgun there will be a difference in POI with the different ammunition. For instance, using the same pistol, but different ammo, I've seen differences of over 3" in POI at 25 yards. Couple days ago I was shooting a pistol with the same bullet weight ammo, but different bullet design and loaded to different velocities. Shooting carefully over a rest,there was a difference in POI of approx. 2" @ 25 yds. Is this likely to matter in a self defense situation. No. I would sure recommend some quality training if at all possible, then use that practice ammo to actually practice. We love to spend endless time on enthusiast forums discussing manufacturers, action types, capacity, calibers, bullet design,etc. Bottom line, shot placement trumps all else.......ymmv
 
my unbelievably beautiful wife could use in a pinch.
Click to expand...

I hope she was looking over your shoulder when you typed that.:D

Using the same weight ammo is not always essential. Taking the responses together, differences in point of impact and in recoil have been discussed. IMO, if the difference in POI is smaller than your normal group size, it is not an issue. Similarly, if you don't notice a difference in recoil between your defensive rounds and your practice rounds, no problem.
 
As far as the over penetration thing goes...

Studies of real world police shootings and civilian shootings show that you are more likely to miss than hit.

Even if it's 50/50... what ammo you use is of little concern to the shots that miss, they will travel on and do their damage as they will. No amount of "doesn't pass through the bad guy" matters to those misses.


While hollow point and other designs that maximize wound path, have been proven to increase the terminal effects of pistol rounds, good aim, good penetration, and getting more rounds in the right places is more important in the long run.


Inside ten yards, and maybe farther, any change in point of impact vs point of aim between 115gr fmj and 124-147gr defensive loads are minimal. And not a huge problem at 25yds either, as your ability to aim and hit a target at that range is more of a concern than an inch or two up or down in point of impact difference... meaning your skill or ability is more a factor on wether you even hit the target or not.

Some people say there is a difference in recoil, but unless you practice with ammo that recoils similarly, which isn't even guaranteed lot to lot in the same type of ammo, then it's not going to matter if you are using the same weight fmj as your defense loads... Basically it's not likely to be an issue.

Just be sure to practice with your chosen defense ammo on at least a somewhat regular basis if you are concerned.

I have yet to have differences in recoil affect me too much. Staying within the same caliber and within typical loads. (I don't use +p, which is going to be the biggest difference in recoil from regular fmj... Because comparisons using modern bullet designs show that often the standard loads get the same or better penetration as the +p, and penetration is what you want)
 
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And not a huge problem at 25yds either, as your ability to aim and hit a target at that range is more of a concern than an inch or two up or down in point of impact difference... meaning your skill or ability is more a factor on wether you even hit the target or not.
Click to expand...

I'd second this. I've done work in courses and on the range where you're doing headshots at say 25 yds. Even at that distance, and I make no claims to be a great pistol marksman, I find that for most defensive sights the front blade is wider than the head. For me there is a distance at which the area covered by that front sight makes my shot to shot precision likely to deviate more than the difference noticed from the change in the loading of the ammunition.
 
+1

I don't have a huge database to make the case, but I suspect that if you manage to put 3 to 4 rounds of either FMJ or JHP ammunition close to centermass on an adversary, that adversary is unlikely to continue the attack. They may suddenly remember they need to be somewhere else and take off running, they may decide to go bother someone else, but if you put 3 or 4 solid hits into your attacker it's unlikely they'll continue to attack.

One of the tips you may want to try is to take a pile of 7" paper plates with you during your next range trip. Staple the paper plates center mass on a B21 silhouette target. Practice drawing your pistol, slow and smooth, and putting 3 to 4 rounds into the target. When you can engage rapidly yet keep all your rounds on the paper plate, that's going to be reasonably effective for close-range self defense shooting.

As Cheapshooter said above, you're not working on precision bullseye shooting here, you're working to develop an extremely rapid and smooth ability to respond to a sudden lethal threat with a minimum of 3-4 rounds center mass at close range.

There are lots of other variables to consider, but I'm not sure the bad guy is going to be able to tell the difference between whether he's been hit with FMJ or with JHP. Just make sure you can hit him with whatever's in the gun.

Best with it.
 
Okay everyone. The points mentioned
Are well taken & I will try to remember
Them tomorrow when I finally get my
wife to come shoot & practice.
We both have to take Florida's tests
to obtain our new home's licenses.
As we've had our TN. Licenses for yrs.
It will be a 2. Hour course for both
of us. Shooting one my 4 Rugers would
Be the obvious choice for us. But since
I now have the Glock, I'm going to
take it out for a spin. I'm sure almost
all of you understand that first feeling
firing a weapon you've never used.
My kid brother, in active service, has been
Busting my chops on the Glock 19 vs
my Ruger 357s. This should be an interesting
day!

PS: I am going to be using 115 gr. FMJ and 124 gr. FMJ and 124 gr. HP's
as for the Rugers, we'il be using 38 specials and 357 mag lite weight ammo
that my friend made for us.
 
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I tryto reload and duplicate what i'm carrying...

I find that for general practice the use the same bullet weight in FMJ and HP.

The only one problem that i have encountered is for the .38Spl in 140gr HP., the original Hornady rounds are no longer made. I found this weight was basically a POA /POI for all my revolvers.
 
I practice with cheap ammo. My Glocks and 1911 can chew up steel casings even so I honestly put whatever is on sale that month through my pistols. I do have self defense ammo and make it a point to change those out yearly.

Gunk, sweat and just being stagnant in my carry pistols 'could potentially' cause an issue. So when the year is over, I shoot the carry ammo and make sure they shoot the sight the same as practice ammo. Some people report their self defense ammo shooting vastly different then their practice ammo. Practice ammo may be dead nuts but SD ammo could be high left.

Mine do not but you do not want to test this out when your life is in danger.
 
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