My rifle is a Rem 700 with a Lilja barrel 26" long 1 1/8 in diameter in 22-250. I use Redding comp neck sizing dies. I had been using a .248 neck bushing and shooting in the mid 4's. Two months ago I went to a .249 neck bushing and my groups went down to the mid 3's. I shoot 5 shot groups at 100yds. This week I tried a .250 neck bushing and the groups opened up to the high 4's. The velocity also went up about 150fps. Same powder and same charge AA2520 34gr with a BIB 52gr match bullet. That said I am going back to the .249 bushing for the better groups but what is the reason for the increase in velocity. I weigh each charge on 2 scales and seat each bullet .015 off the lands which seems to give me the best groups. I was wondering about the higher velocity. Thanks for any answers.
Neck Tension
- Thread starter Poconolg
- Start date
Can you elaborate a little more on the load , bullet and purpose . A 1-1/8" barrel I assume all the way to the muzzle is not a hunting or carry around all day firearm . Assuming that's true in your case what are you using this firearm for ? I ask because 3" to 4" group at 100yds is terrible for just about any rifle .
Example . Here is some test loads I just tried for a new AR build I did . The barrel is a cheap $99 PSA barrel and these are 4 different loads I tried . As you can see there were 35 shots taken and the worst group was 1.2" or moa with many being just under moa .
And that's with a cheap barrel and a 6x scope with a heavy 4+lb trigger . Did you mean to write .3" and .4" or are you using iron sights ?
Example . Here is some test loads I just tried for a new AR build I did . The barrel is a cheap $99 PSA barrel and these are 4 different loads I tried . As you can see there were 35 shots taken and the worst group was 1.2" or moa with many being just under moa .
And that's with a cheap barrel and a 6x scope with a heavy 4+lb trigger . Did you mean to write .3" and .4" or are you using iron sights ?
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I full size with the expander , standard RCBS die the expander ball is .306 wouldn't that give a grip of .002 , I tried S type bushing dies from Redding , nice die but that setup my runout was higher then using a standard die. I don't neck turn or put heat on the necks. I do keep my case headspace to .002 no more & seat to a .002 jump.
CW . Can you compare how much the standard die sizes down your neck before the expander expands it or size cases in the standard die with out the expander . Then compare the difference with using the bushing die . I'm thinks ny the standard die is working the brass more then the bushing dies do .
Are use the bushing dies with the expander button . I do this to not overwork the brass like a standard day does because I don't turn my next either so I need my internal diameter concentric and that's why I use the expander even though I use the bushing dies .
Did you have the same bad concentricity when you used the expander button with the bushing dies ?
Are use the bushing dies with the expander button . I do this to not overwork the brass like a standard day does because I don't turn my next either so I need my internal diameter concentric and that's why I use the expander even though I use the bushing dies .
Did you have the same bad concentricity when you used the expander button with the bushing dies ?
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Maybe by comparison of where you should be, my Savage build in 7.5 Swiss might help.
With PPU (the only thing you can get in 7.5) I have one load worked up that shoots a solid .220 or so MOA. I have not shot that one a lot, but two totally different days (one 55 and the other 75) and both shot nearly the same.
That is with standard dies, using a Lyman M die for expansion.
I think two major factors are the bullets are Bergers Jugs (I got them on sale) and I have really good Lothar Walther barrel. Obviously I am doing a good job behind the gun but without the other two good is wasted.
Scales: seems odd you don't trust your scale?
I don't know where Lilja is in the scheme of things but I would expect better out of one from reputation.
With PPU (the only thing you can get in 7.5) I have one load worked up that shoots a solid .220 or so MOA. I have not shot that one a lot, but two totally different days (one 55 and the other 75) and both shot nearly the same.
That is with standard dies, using a Lyman M die for expansion.
I think two major factors are the bullets are Bergers Jugs (I got them on sale) and I have really good Lothar Walther barrel. Obviously I am doing a good job behind the gun but without the other two good is wasted.
Scales: seems odd you don't trust your scale?
I don't know where Lilja is in the scheme of things but I would expect better out of one from reputation.
MG,
Per Poconolg, "1's", 2's, 3's,…" is benchrest lingo for tenths of an inch, C-T-C.
Poconolg,
did you measure concentricity of the finish rounds and compare? Sometimes over tightening can worsen it. The effect may also be as simple as the change in start pressure altering your barrel time enough to move you off a sweet spot. Compare velocities for a difference in mean value and if the tighter necks produce higher velocity, try backing the powder charge down until it matches again.
Per Poconolg, "1's", 2's, 3's,…" is benchrest lingo for tenths of an inch, C-T-C.
Poconolg,
did you measure concentricity of the finish rounds and compare? Sometimes over tightening can worsen it. The effect may also be as simple as the change in start pressure altering your barrel time enough to move you off a sweet spot. Compare velocities for a difference in mean value and if the tighter necks produce higher velocity, try backing the powder charge down until it matches again.
Metal god
My standard sizes the neck OD fired .342 sized down to .333 with the bushing die I used a .336 bushing, using FC brass with wall thickness of. 015
I always use the expander, when using the bushing dies I sized down the necks in two steps , first neck sized down .003 with a .339 bushing then full sized with expander .003 with the .336 bushing. When seating a Sierra 168 MK both bushing & standard seated with the same felt smoothness.
Even though the standard die sizes down the neck neck in one step to .333 the expander ball measurement is .306 on the fans down stroke the ball goes through smooth with little resistance.
My concentricity is .001 with the standard & an average of .003 with the bushing , both using the expanders ball.
My standard sizes the neck OD fired .342 sized down to .333 with the bushing die I used a .336 bushing, using FC brass with wall thickness of. 015
I always use the expander, when using the bushing dies I sized down the necks in two steps , first neck sized down .003 with a .339 bushing then full sized with expander .003 with the .336 bushing. When seating a Sierra 168 MK both bushing & standard seated with the same felt smoothness.
Even though the standard die sizes down the neck neck in one step to .333 the expander ball measurement is .306 on the fans down stroke the ball goes through smooth with little resistance.
My concentricity is .001 with the standard & an average of .003 with the bushing , both using the expanders ball.
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I'll have to check mine . I have both Redding standard dies as well as there type "s" bushing dies in 308 . I'm going to be very disappointed if my 336 bushing sizes the neck down just as much as the standard die does before expanded .
EDIT : Thanks Unclenick I'll keep that in mind from now on .
EDIT : Thanks Unclenick I'll keep that in mind from now on .
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Metal god
The 336 bushing will be 336 the standard die ( my RCBS F/L die ) sizes OD down to .333 the ball makes the inside diameter .306 .
My standard RCBS die , nothing fancy worked better for me in every way. Being I'm only shooting 30 rounds every weekend I can give a lot of time prepping my brass. I've tried different dies , lubes & measuring tools , ended up using the RCBS standard die, lube , RCBS precision mic , Redding Competition seating die & shell holder set of 5 My brass is cleaned in a wet tumbler using SS pins & Sun dish detergent. I'm done trying different things , I'll stick with works for me.
The 336 bushing will be 336 the standard die ( my RCBS F/L die ) sizes OD down to .333 the ball makes the inside diameter .306 .
My standard RCBS die , nothing fancy worked better for me in every way. Being I'm only shooting 30 rounds every weekend I can give a lot of time prepping my brass. I've tried different dies , lubes & measuring tools , ended up using the RCBS standard die, lube , RCBS precision mic , Redding Competition seating die & shell holder set of 5 My brass is cleaned in a wet tumbler using SS pins & Sun dish detergent. I'm done trying different things , I'll stick with works for me.
MG,
Just buy the bushing size you need or make one on your lathe and case harden it. I've done a couple that way in a pinch. I used CRS I stress-relieved as the base metal. I used drill rod to make a D reamer, turned, drilled and reamed and polished the CRS bushing inside, then used Kasenit for the hardening.
Cw308,
I am surprised you like to use the expander. Not only works the brass more, but expanders are famous for pulling necks off-axis. Is there a reason you didn't just get a bushing that gives you the final size you want without involving the extra narrowing and expanding steps?
Just buy the bushing size you need or make one on your lathe and case harden it. I've done a couple that way in a pinch. I used CRS I stress-relieved as the base metal. I used drill rod to make a D reamer, turned, drilled and reamed and polished the CRS bushing inside, then used Kasenit for the hardening.
Cw308,
I am surprised you like to use the expander. Not only works the brass more, but expanders are famous for pulling necks off-axis. Is there a reason you didn't just get a bushing that gives you the final size you want without involving the extra narrowing and expanding steps?
Unclenick
After reading articles on neck turning to true the OD of the case neck , by sizing a case with the OD not being perfect the inside diameter would be off. Made sense to me so I always use the expander , I keep the shaft on the expander loose by using two washers with a rubber O- ring between the washers on top of the die & the lock nut , it seems to self center the ball.
I feel very little resistance when the expander ball goes through the neck , the ball measures .306 the runout is .001 which is pretty good for using a standard die. My groups are .5 at 200 yard zero , I am shooting mild loads though 40.8 gr. of IMR 4064 using a Sierra 168gr.MK . Never had much success with Redding S Type bushing dies , they are well made , for some reason the standard RCBS full length die worked best.
After reading articles on neck turning to true the OD of the case neck , by sizing a case with the OD not being perfect the inside diameter would be off. Made sense to me so I always use the expander , I keep the shaft on the expander loose by using two washers with a rubber O- ring between the washers on top of the die & the lock nut , it seems to self center the ball.
I feel very little resistance when the expander ball goes through the neck , the ball measures .306 the runout is .001 which is pretty good for using a standard die. My groups are .5 at 200 yard zero , I am shooting mild loads though 40.8 gr. of IMR 4064 using a Sierra 168gr.MK . Never had much success with Redding S Type bushing dies , they are well made , for some reason the standard RCBS full length die worked best.
Stats Shooter
New member
Cw308
I too just use RCBS standard sizing dies with an O ring between the top of the knurled nut, and a washer. I do this on everything except my F-CLASS .300 wm. My run-out on a standard RCBS sizing die is also about .001. I use a Lyman carbide expander ball in my RCBS dies to avoid lubing the neck.
In my .300wm I use a method Unclenick suggested where I use a Redding body die, Lee neck die, and Forster Ultimate seating die. Run-out , if any, is too small to measure...the needle doesn't noticably move. 1/4" - 1/3" groups at 200 yards.
But my plain ol RCBS sizing die and seating die yields 3/4" groups at 200 in my varmint AR. I'm not sure if the gun can do better than that.
But a true 1/2" at 200 yards with no "Mulligan" fliers is outstanding... good enough for everything except maybe IBR.
I too just use RCBS standard sizing dies with an O ring between the top of the knurled nut, and a washer. I do this on everything except my F-CLASS .300 wm. My run-out on a standard RCBS sizing die is also about .001. I use a Lyman carbide expander ball in my RCBS dies to avoid lubing the neck.
In my .300wm I use a method Unclenick suggested where I use a Redding body die, Lee neck die, and Forster Ultimate seating die. Run-out , if any, is too small to measure...the needle doesn't noticably move. 1/4" - 1/3" groups at 200 yards.
But my plain ol RCBS sizing die and seating die yields 3/4" groups at 200 in my varmint AR. I'm not sure if the gun can do better than that.
But a true 1/2" at 200 yards with no "Mulligan" fliers is outstanding... good enough for everything except maybe IBR.
Mississippi
1/4 - 3/4" groups with a 300WM at 200 yards to me that's damn good shooting. I'm going to give the Lyman carbide ball a try, its the Deluxe decapping assembly that's compatible with the RCBS die correct? If so I'll order from MidwayUSA.
Thanks for the info. This forum is like when I'm at the range talking to my range friends, we share info & screw ups. Last week one of the guys asked to borrow my rod , he had an
A_ _ H _ _ _ moment . Bullet stuck in his barrel , primer, case, bullet no powder.
Thanks again Mississippi
Chris
1/4 - 3/4" groups with a 300WM at 200 yards to me that's damn good shooting. I'm going to give the Lyman carbide ball a try, its the Deluxe decapping assembly that's compatible with the RCBS die correct? If so I'll order from MidwayUSA.
Thanks for the info. This forum is like when I'm at the range talking to my range friends, we share info & screw ups. Last week one of the guys asked to borrow my rod , he had an
A_ _ H _ _ _ moment . Bullet stuck in his barrel , primer, case, bullet no powder.
Thanks again Mississippi
Chris
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Stats Shooter
New member
Yes it is the deluxe expander...I know that they fit Lyman (obviously) and RCBS ( Which is what I have) dies. But can't personally comment on if/how they work in other brands.
As for the groups. Brass prep is key and sorting bullets by ogive can help.
Necks turned
Flash hole deburr
Pockets uniformed
Trimmed
Fireformed
Annealed
Sized (body then neck)
Trimmed again
Then weight sorted
......
Then ready for competition, where I manage to shoot at 1k yards worse than my equipment is capable.
JeepHammer
Moderator
Quote Mississippi,
"Then ready for competition, where I manage to shoot at 1k yards worse than my equipment is capable".
AMEN brother!
When a guys shows up with a rifle there is nothing wrong with and says "What can I do to shoot 'Better'?"
I always say, "Work with an instructor on fundamentals, the rifle is shooting better than you are."
When a local vet (army sniper, disabled) started shooting at my home range, he set up a camera behind and above me/him, could track nearly every one of my 'Fliers' to something I screwed up on the fundamentals...
I 'Almost' got my shooting scores back up to when I was in my prime with his coaching!
We all develope bad habits...
-----
Nearly everyone throws a fit when I suggest HONING a sizing die to actually make the brass fit the chamber...
I do often use a sizing ball HONED to fit the bullet simply because the mouth lips often curl inward when the round is fired, especially when the mouth is champfered/deburred.
Thinner brass seems to curl inward more... Don't ask me about the Dynamics involved...
The ball simply straightens out the curling at the mouth when it's honed to the correct size for your bullet/brass.
The idea of crushing down the brass 0.003-0.005" in excess of what you actually NEED, then dragging a ball through to expand that neck you just crushed never made sense to me,
So I hone the neck in the die, then hone the ball to produce brass (for a specific rifle) that actually fits the chamber & bullet.
This is WAY beyond what most will do, and you need ACCURATE measuring equipment...
Honing let's you adjust 'Common' dies for any & all specific rifles.
It's the closest thing you can get to a custom die made with the same chamber reamer used on the barrel, not that a chamber cut & die cut are identical to start with...
(Cast a chamber, then cast a reloading die and you will see what I mean)
"Then ready for competition, where I manage to shoot at 1k yards worse than my equipment is capable".
AMEN brother!
When a guys shows up with a rifle there is nothing wrong with and says "What can I do to shoot 'Better'?"
I always say, "Work with an instructor on fundamentals, the rifle is shooting better than you are."
When a local vet (army sniper, disabled) started shooting at my home range, he set up a camera behind and above me/him, could track nearly every one of my 'Fliers' to something I screwed up on the fundamentals...
I 'Almost' got my shooting scores back up to when I was in my prime with his coaching!
We all develope bad habits...
-----
Nearly everyone throws a fit when I suggest HONING a sizing die to actually make the brass fit the chamber...
I do often use a sizing ball HONED to fit the bullet simply because the mouth lips often curl inward when the round is fired, especially when the mouth is champfered/deburred.
Thinner brass seems to curl inward more... Don't ask me about the Dynamics involved...
The ball simply straightens out the curling at the mouth when it's honed to the correct size for your bullet/brass.
The idea of crushing down the brass 0.003-0.005" in excess of what you actually NEED, then dragging a ball through to expand that neck you just crushed never made sense to me,
So I hone the neck in the die, then hone the ball to produce brass (for a specific rifle) that actually fits the chamber & bullet.
This is WAY beyond what most will do, and you need ACCURATE measuring equipment...
Honing let's you adjust 'Common' dies for any & all specific rifles.
It's the closest thing you can get to a custom die made with the same chamber reamer used on the barrel, not that a chamber cut & die cut are identical to start with...
(Cast a chamber, then cast a reloading die and you will see what I mean)
cw308,
Sorry. I got the idea you were on a bushing die somehow. Probably just thread context.
You'll like the carbide expander. I have used one with a standard Redding die for .30-06. Unlike Mississippi, I still used inside neck lube with it, so the drag was very light, indeed. That combination does not pull necks off-axis that I could discern at the time.
Sorry. I got the idea you were on a bushing die somehow. Probably just thread context.
You'll like the carbide expander. I have used one with a standard Redding die for .30-06. Unlike Mississippi, I still used inside neck lube with it, so the drag was very light, indeed. That combination does not pull necks off-axis that I could discern at the time.