Navy Arms/ Uberti Schofield

4

44caliberkid

New member
In the always wanted category, a Schofield, No.3, or 44 American replica, don’t like the curly thing on the Russian trigger guard. Monday I picked up this Navy Arms Schofield Cavalry Model. Probably from the first year Uberti made them, 3 digit serial number in the 400’s. Chambered in 44-40. I could only find 19 rounds of smokeless 44-40, all the rest of mine is loaded with black powder. Shoots good though, 1 1/4 inch group at 15 yards. Tolerances are tight, even just shooting those 19 rounds the cylinder was starting to drag. No way it would take BP rounds for long. It came with the original box, which is also a reproduction of the original Smith & Wesson box, a hinged top with the instructions printed in the lid. It was researched for Navy by Roy Jinks. He said they only made the box in 1875-1876, then discontinued it because it was too expensive.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1027-compressed.jpeg
    IMG_1027-compressed.jpeg
    269.1 KB · Views: 111
I've always wanted one of those as well, in 44-40. I wish top breaks were a more viable/stronger design, because I think they're just so cool. I'd love to be able to get one in a magnum caliber.
 
From what I have read the most powerful rounds top breaks can handle are 45 Schofield, 45 Long Colt, at factory levels. The hinge is the weak part of that design.
Excellent find.
 
Uberti Schofield's don't handle black powder well and tolerance has nothing to do with it. When they decided to chamber them in .45 Colt the cylinder wasn't long enough. Instead of making the frame a little longer they cut the difference off of the gas ring that prevented fouling.
 
The firing pin might not reach a .45 S&W primer in a gun made for clips and Auto Rim.
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't it?? When you cut a cylinder for clips or to use the .45AR case, you cut it so the primer stays in the same spot relative to the breech face. done right, there is no extra "firing pin reach" involved.

Personally, I'm not a fan of clipping revolver rounds that don't NEED it. (meaning rimmed rounds).

It costs $, there is no practical advantage over speedloaders in the real world and while a possible SLIGHT speed advantage in the game world, I would think one would need to a top tier level competitor to realize any advantage.

Also, if you're looking at doing it with a top break revolver, (and, in this case a single action top break revolver) full moon clips will not "automatically" eject, you'll need to "dump" them by twisting/tilting the gun, sometimes.

Half moon clips usually will fall off one to each side, but full moons might not. Not a big deal, except where you're playing a speed game, but if you are, its something to be aware of. I base this on my personal experience with a top break revolver shooting clipped.45ACP brass. (1917 Webley Mk VI)

With the gun held vertically and opened, a full moon clip of empties gets lifted up, but not tossed out, and can wind up sitting on top of the cylinder when the ejector snaps back down. Doesn't ALWAYS happen, but can. Giving the gun a shake or holding barrel up takes care of the problem IF it happens.

I don't see where full moons are any faster than a good speed loader, but then I'm not a competing against anyone but myself. And, a top break is DIFFERENT than the standard swing out cylinder guns. You have to open the top break ALL THE WAY, to get the extractor to snap back down so you can fully insert new rounds. With the swing out, releasing finger pressure on the extractor allows its spring to retract it if the cylinder is open in any position.

I think most of the people in love with the top break revolver have never used one. They are neat, and a good design, for some things (such as short, low pressure cartridges), and they can be made to work with longer cases, but not high pressure rounds.

Specific to the Uberti, I expect it would be a good gun, Uberti has a reputation for making good guns.

I had a "stretched Schofield" in .45 Colt. Beautifully finished, mechanically crap, made by Armi San Marcos. If you have a chance to get one of those, don't. Get the Uberti, you'll be happier and have a gun that actually works right
 
Elegant

Top breaks have a certain elegance. My sole example is a black powder bicycle revolver, looks unfired and blued not Nickel, H+R in .32 I won't likely ever fire it either, unless I were to get a wild hair and the dies.
 
I have several break open Smiths, a .32 and .38 single actions and a .32 Lemon Squeezer D/A, also a S&W New Frontier 44, but it doesn’t say 44 what. It will chamber 44 Russian, 44 Special and 44-40, fires them all, but I stick with 44 Russian black powder loads.
 
you cut it so the primer OF THE CLIPPED ACP OR AR stays in the same spot relative to the breech face.
Click to expand...

The primer of a .45 S&W "Schofield" will be about .020" forward in an AR cylinder.

I had a "stretched Schofield" in .45 Colt. Beautifully finished, mechanically crap, made by Armi San Marcos. If you have a chance to get one of those, don't.
Click to expand...

Too late. A friend and I each bought one on the sayso of a Cowboy Chronicle article by an Australian who said the ASM was better. One of them would not work out of the box in the store. The dealer sent it back and EMF replaced it. When the shooting started, I found mine was hitting 9" left at 25 yards, his nearly as far off. The barrels would not pass a range rod... crooked. Back to EMF. They sent them back to Italy. Eventually EMF gave us refunds of the wholesale cost. Fortunately the dealer had not charged much to place an order with our money so we were only out $20 each. I applied my refund to a SAA repro which was generally satisfactory except for the common requirement to twist the barrel to zero. We weren't the only ones, the ASM Schofield debacle nearly put EMF out of business.

a S&W New Frontier 44, but it doesn’t say 44 what. It will chamber 44 Russian, 44 Special and 44-40, fires them all, but I stick with 44 Russian black powder loads.
Click to expand...

A S&W top break Frontier is by definition a .44-40. Some but not all were marked ".44 Winchester Ctg." Is the cylinder 1 9/16" long, is the SN less than 2073 if single action, less than 15341 if double action?

Never heard it called a New Frontier, that is a Colt.
 
The primer of a .45 S&W "Schofield" will be about .020" forward in an AR cylinder.
Click to expand...

Ok. But you're shooting ammo the gun wasn't made to use. It fits, but the gun isn't made for that case.

Too late. A friend and I each bought one on the sayso of a Cowboy Chronicle article by an Australian who said the ASM was better.
Click to expand...

Sorry you got stuck, though it is a little bit nice to hear that the one I got wasn't the only bad one. Fired the gun two cylinders of standard factory ammo, not cowboy action stuff, not heavy loads, just the standard 255gr factory stuff. It hit about point of aim, BUT.....

The gun failed to fire one round, AND also "shot off the face" (opened up on its own! :eek::eek:) once each cylinder so, that ended that. :mad:

Top breaks are classy, cool, elegant, an echo of an earlier era. But you can't have one in a magnum.

Or, rather you could, but it would have to have the strength (and be nearly the size and weight) of a double rifle action. Cost would be astronomical and until someone actually designed and built one no one could know how durable it might be.

If you have the cash (like win the lottery jackpot, so you've got plenty to waste on fun toys), find a "mad machinist" who wants a challenge, and support him for a year or three while he builds one for you.

OF course, if you're going to do that, go big and make it a Webley-Fosberry! :D
 
"Why wouldn't it?? When you cut a cylinder for clips or to use the .45AR case, you cut it so the primer stays in the same spot relative to the breech face. done right, there is no extra "firing pin reach" involved."

Because the Auto Rim's rim thickness is .0827.

The rim thickness of the .45 Colt/.45 Schofield is .060.

If you clip .45 ACP rounds so that they will fit into a gun chambered for .45 ACP (like the M1917 Colt or S&@), it creates a "rim" that is .0827.

So if you have a gun that will chamber clipped .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim, there will be FAR too much headspace for the firing pin to reliably hit the primer on a .45 Colt/.45 S&W cartridge.

If you have a gun that will chamber .45 Colt/.45 S&W, it will NOT chamber .45 Auto Rim or clipped .45 ACP. Rim's far too thick.
 
So if you have a gun that will chamber clipped .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim, there will be FAR too much headspace for the firing pin to reliably hit the primer on a .45 Colt/.45 S&W cartridge.
Click to expand...

Right. What's your point??

So if you have a gun that will chamber clipped .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim, there will be FAR too much headspace for the firing pin to reliably hit the primer on a .45 Colt/.45 S&W cartridge.
Click to expand...

again, this is a well known fact, and I don't see the point. A gun chambered for the .45ACP or the .45AR is not a .45 Colt, or a .45 S&W, its a .45ACP just one made with the clearance to use clips or take the Auto Rim case.

Where does this idea even originate from? Unless specifically designed to be an "omnivore" and eat every .45 round possible, our guns are made for a certain specific cartridge. Yes there are many examples where a different round will chamber and fire, and nearly all of them are dimensionally the same as the marked cartridge, other than length.

This is the case with the .45 Colt and .45 S&W, the .44 Mag and Special, the .357 mag and the .38Special, but its not the case with other cartridge combinations. You can't fit .45 Colt or .45 S&W into a .45acp chamber, not only are they too long, they are too WIDE.

THere are also examples of where a case shouldn't fit, but sometimes does, due to manufacturing tolerances. SOME .38 Special revolvers will chamber and fire .38 Super ammunition. By the specs it shouldn't be possible but sometimes it is, I've seen it.

The 9mm Federal (the rimmed round) got pulled off the market pretty quickly when some people found out it would fit and fire in a .38S&W cylinder. (they really should have learned that BEFORE going into production, would have been lots cheaper :rolleyes:)

SO why the concern that a cylinder cut to use clipped .45ACP cases or .45AR cases puts the primer of a .45 Colt or .45S&W too far away from the firing pin? The .45Colt and .45 S&W aren't the ammo you're supposed to be using in a .45acp gun. Even IF they do somehow, fit???

Just curious..
 
What's the point?

The point is, this sentence of yours makes absolutely NO sense if you modify a gun to fire clipped .45 ACP or Auto Rim cartridges and then try to fire .45 Schofield/Colt out of it.

"Why wouldn't it?? When you cut a cylinder for clips or to use the .45AR case, you cut it so the primer stays in the same spot relative to the breech face. done right, there is no extra "firing pin reach" involved."

You've missed something in the discussion chain.
 
There are some tricks that work to some extent.
You can cut a .45 LC cylinder to accept clipped .45 ACP and still have some of the original rear face of the cylinder for .45 LC to seat on. But it won't take .45 AR.

I recently read that you can rechamber a .455 Colt or Smith to take .45 LC with a minimum diameter counterbore for the thicker LC rim. The thin but wide .455 rim will overlap the counterbore and headspace properly. But it won't take .45 ACP or AR.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top