NAA Guardian in 9X18MM

G

George Hill

Staff Alumnus
I had an idea and have emailed Sandy Chisholm about it... You guys tell me what you think:

The NAA is wanting to make mouse guns with some more bite. The .380 is a weak sister next to the more potent 9X18mm, or 9MM Makarov as it is also called. There is a size difference, but a small one. To make a Guardian that would fit the Mak round, would be easy since the frames are made on CNC mills. Making a mag that would take it is just as easy from a manufactures point of view. Anyways...
You all know the advantages that the Mak has over the .380... Its just a tad longer with a taped case that gives you a bit more internal case volume... more power. blah blah blah.

Would you consider a Guardian in 9X18MM? Or am I sniffing too much of the ol'#9?

Do the pros and cons for me...
 
A .380 ACP Guardian is about the upper limit for the frame size. In order to chamber the Guardian for the 9X18 the frame would have to be made larger. Now you lose parts compatability. The idea that NAA has for wildcatting the .32 NAA (.380 ACP case necked down to hold a .32 cal. bullet) and .25 NAA (.32 ACP case necked down to hold a .25 cal. bullet) makes more sense because they only need to cut and ream some of the chambers differently. That would only require new cutters, meaning minimal tooling costs for the new round. Chambering a Guardian for the 9X18 (which is not being produced domestically) would require completely new tooling. From a manufacturer's point of view, I'd pass.
 
NAA 9x18 = Kahr MK9 :)

Kahr makes the frames for the NAA Guardian. ;)

I agree with Blades, for the reasons he listed, but will add a few more. It's more than just a diameter issue, in terms of chambering for the 9x18. I'm not an engineer, but I'm pretty sure the high velocity, high pressure nature of the 9mm round requires a beefier barrel. Since the Guardian's barrel IS the frame, that adds mass and bulk to the overall gun. Other components also need to be scaled up, like greater slide mass, and/or a stiffer spring, and so on. Form follows function is all too true in firearms engineering.
 
Goerge, whats wrong with sniffing Hoppes? Errr, sorry been cleaning my guns...for 3 days straight....Where am I?

I gotta question and comment. The power advantage of the Mak is admittedly, alittle, over the 9Kurz round. But this is mainly in US made ammo...imported Mak ammo can be at high as 30% and more in FPE for the Mak...Barnual, wolf etc. The only physical difference in the rounds is 1mm in length and .011" in diameter. The difference in case pressure is the bigger difference. The added pressure would have to be compensated for, but 2 guns I have shot are chambered in .380 and Mak...the barrel dimensions are virtually the same..on the CZ 83 they are identical except the chamber/bore diameter. It may be the case that the gun is overly built for the .380 from the git go.

NAA's new rounds, the necked down rounds, will be ballistically better than there counterparts according to NAA. When you neck down any round, you increase the case pressure accordingly, correct?
If this is right, then why not the Makarov Guardian?
Given, NAA and Barnes wont have the "market" cornered on the new caliber but would be fun none the less.

Good thread and Shoot well
 
I am not willing to fire a Guardian in 380, so 9x18 would be even scarier due to heavy recoil. A PA63 is bad enough despite greater weight. IMO, 9x18 would be a better round for something with a locked breech, such as a Colt Govt.380
 
I don't know, when I saw this thread title, I thought, "Man, what a good idea! Why hasn't this come up before?" The only reason that I don't own a Guardian (I love NAA products) is that I'm not a giant fan of the .380, especially out of such a short bbl. The new NAA proprietary rounds are interesting, but I'm skeptical: I love the .357 Sig, but a .380 necked down to a .32 is not anywhere near the same thing as a .40 necked down to a .355. You're still going to have an itty-bitty light bullet, no matter how fast (not amazingly fast) it's going.

But I like the fat little russki round (I believe Winchester USA does load it domestically, but maybe they just subcontract it from S&B the way they do their 7.62x54R): it's accurate, about as stout as you should get in a blowback, and (to address Oleg's point) it's not like anyone's going to be firing the little Guardian a heck of a lot anyway. (Besides, haven't I read that the NAA design is shockingly mild on the recoil department?) I see what Rovert is saying, but I have a suspicion that the Guardian has a little extra room in the strength department - enough to take on the slightly higher pressure of the 9x18. I think this might be what it took to get me into a Guardian.

George, good idea! Let us know what Sandy replies, if you would.
 
it's not like anyone's going to be firing the little Guardian a heck of a lot anyway.
Click to expand...

In my opinion, the trend towards hot rounds in small guns is not a good one. A mousegun has to be fired extensively for proficiency, if only to compensate for hard trigger pulls and minimal sights. .25acp Beretta canbe fired extensively with minimal discomfort: the ability to practice and a decent trigger mean that users can gain proficiency. A 9x18 (or 380) Guardian is such a handful (as are most alloy 38/357 revolvers) that little practice is possible, and what practice is done is unrealistic (i.e. two-handed target shooting vs. quickdraw or firing from retention), mainly because the guns are so uncomfortable.

So the idea of a light fast bullet might have merit over going to a heavier slug...but, overall, I would consider smaller calibers actually more useful in mouseguns. They allow steady pracitce and quick multiple shots.
 
You're right, I retract my "It's not like anybody's going to be shooting . . ." statement.

The reality is that my present "mousegun" is a j-frame in 9x19. It's snappy all right (much, much worse than my SMC-380 was), but I shoot it a lot. And one of the things I like about it is that full-power ammo (of the recoil level that I would use for self-defense) is cheap and readily available, so I do shoot it a lot.

It might not be for everybody (the S&W 940 sure isn't - they discontinued it), but I'd still like to have one.
 
With the popularity of the Makarov, I bet that we will be seeing plenty of 9x18 produced for quite some time.

Plus if it can shoot steel cased surplus, 9x18 is dirt cheap.

That would actutally be a very interesting gun.

Recoil would suck, and most people wouldn't practice. But I think that Oleg is probably in the minority of people who practice much with their mouse guns. Most mouse gun owners that I know hardly ever shoot their little guns. I carry a full size 1911, but it would be nice to have a little gun to throw into my pocket as a backup.

I'm a Mak owner, and fan of the Russian gun, I would be sorely tempted to purchase the NAA in 9x18. Especially if it was reliable with the cheap ammo.
 
From NAA's standpoint, it easier than Pie to make a 9X18 Guardian. Sandy picks up a phone, calls Kahr "Hey, I want 1,000 guardians in 9X18. Thanks. By June 15th, okay? Great. Thanks again. Bye."

The slides are milled on CNC machines. All you have to do is change the design in the program and the machine will cut it. Boom. Done. It is that easy.

Mags are subcontracted out as well. Again... a phone call.

Make 1000 of them. Sell them off and see what people think.

I LOVE small guns is potent calibers. Give me a small pistol loaded with overheated russian ammo, and I'll be all smiles.
Give me a NOISY CRICKET any day.
 
I can see not practicing much if the mousgun is the backup...but for some it is the primary. Just because one can't hit much at 21ft, doesn't meant that the enemy will obligingly stand closer and wait for us to try for the best shot out of seven in the gun.

For this reason, I'd pick a SW317 Kit Gun (8 shots of the despised 22lr) over a 380 Guardian. I'd get good with the non-kick revolver...but not dare to fire the 380 much, due to the kick (same with SW342Ti and similar designs)
 
Mouse gun as back up

Of course it is Oleg. It's what you carry when your not carrying your Gun. Back up or even a 3rd gun.

Seriously, I have a pager that is bigger than this .32NAA Guardian.
The gun its self is stout enough to handle the cartride... it only needs to be a touch bigger to accept the longer cartridge. Thats it. The shape of it feels good in the hand and the .380 shoots a lot easier than you would think.

Got an email from a TFL Lurker/MadOgre reader:
"Ogre, Why don't you just buy a Mak and have it cut down to a subcompact size"?

Hey, that's a GREAT idea. If I had the money...
 
I would love to cut down a Mak. But there are a few problems.

1. Lots of money for a totally custom one of a kind gun.
2. The mechanical reliability will be in question. Start hacking on the barrel, slide, lockup, etc. and who knows what would happen.
3. Cutting down the grip would be nice for concealment, but then you have to have custom magazines. Even more money.

One thing Sandy might want to keep in mind though, later this year the Rohrbaugh 9mm will hit the market, and is is about the size of the NAA 380 only in 9mm. The prototype I saw was well built, and it looks like a killer design. I have a feeling that if the Rohrbaugh turns out to be reliable it is going to sell like hotcakes.
 
I don't think you would really need to gun down the barrel on a Mak. It's already short enough.
Just cut the grip down. Not tricky at all, but you'll have to trim the mags as well. The mags are kept with a heel clip, so you will have to do a good job on that part... but a gunsmith should be able to do that with not too much work.
Cut back the slide and barrel would be cool. I don't think you would hamper reliabilty. If you do, just try a different spring. Maybe a lighter one. Initally keep the same spring because you just lost some of the slide's mass so it will be moving faster... if that doesnt work clip off a coil and try that. Rinse and repeat until you get it right.

My Chopped Mak:
 

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From NAA's standpoint, it easier than Pie to make a 9X18 Guardian. Sandy picks up a phone, calls Kahr "Hey, I want 1,000 guardians in 9X18. Thanks. By June 15th, okay? Great. Thanks again. Bye."
Click to expand...

George, all due respect, but I seriously doubt it's that easy. For starters, even though the frame and slide is CNC machined, there's more to changing the programming than just punching in a few changes in the digits. Would you want to fire a gun that didn't go through an extensive engineering analysis for stress factors and safety? Also, boring a barrel is again, much more than just drilling a hole. It requires highly sophisticated machinery, and it's not something that I think can just be 'plugged in' on a moment's notice.

What you're proposing is like dropping 454 pistons in a 350 block. I mean, they're all CNC machined, right? :D The engineering changes to connecting rods, cams, valves and lifters, coolant paths, and even if you COULD fit all those pistons in the smaller block, having an alloy that would withstand the increased pressure... well, I could go on, but I'm sure you get my point.

I could be wrong, but time will tell...
 
Of course its that easy. With all due respect, it is just one phone call.
Kahr is the one that has to do the making. NAA just buys them. It's just a matter of price.

As to the stress testing, you not talking about a 454 with over 500 horses and 500 pounds of torque! Not to be flippant or anything but your only talking a small incremental change in the frame to handle a cartridge that is just a bit bigger with a small increment in power. This isn't reinventing the freaking wheel. This isnt dropping a 454 into a 350. More like AMC's 360 and making it into a 401. If you don't know cars, thats a simple change. 90% of all the same parts work. You only need new pistons, header... that's about it. Bore out the cylinders a bit and your set. (I know, I have that very thing sitting in my drive way)
You can't drop a Accord V-6 into a Civic either... but there are a lot of people who do that any way. My Guardian idea isn't even that extensive.
The frames right now, guys, they are already strong. If it wasn't a size issue, you could run the X18 rounds right now. The only testing you need to do is to find the right springs.
Judas... as if I've never played with a CNC mill before.
(Hint: Yes I have. I've used a CNC mill to cut some new parts for a paintball marker. That included making design changes on the fly that were bigger changes than what Kahr would have to do to make this work.)
It would be a smaller change than what NAA did to go from .32 to .380. Much smaller.

Judas, what a buncha naysayers. You would have told the Wright Brothers "Nay, ya can't do that." Of course you can. You just got to DO IT. :p
 
I don't think anyone needs it. NAA makes a fine weapon, but in my opinion the .380 is getting up to "clunky" feeling. It is just too dense. Also, the "rorbaugh" 9mm which was shown at the shot show this year looks an awfully lot like an NAA. Nothing to novel. I think the new Kahr micropolymer will be the ticket if your lookin for a small powerful platform.
 
I'm with you, George. It would be cool.

Maybe not quite as easy as you say, though. I'm sure Kahr would charge NAA some tooling fees. For safety-testing the new design if nothing else. Mag subcontractor may charge some change fee, too. So the economics may not be as good for NAA as the .380 Guardian.

Recoil would not be THAT bad. People buy Scadmium .38's, and this would definitely be more controllable than one of those.

NAA should market it in Russia and Eastern Europe. ;)
 
I'm getting to like the idea of cutting down the Makarovs better than making a Guardian fit.

The .380 isnt clunky or chunky at all. I've been wearing it since I got it and fellas... it's like its not even there. With a decent belt, it just evaporates. With a regular sissy dress belt, its still forgetable. It isnt too big at all. Slipping it into a pocket, it carries just fine. No problem. Not as skinny and light as a Kel Tec .32, but then again, this has more punch.
Everything in an autopistol is a compromise... no matter what HK says.
 
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