My wife's 'Ah-ha!" moment

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brmfan

New member
So the Mrs. and I are watching some Top 10 machine gun show just now, and it was mentioned that the .50 M2 had an effective range of 4.5 miles. She said "How is that even possible!?" so I pulled out an API round from my ammo box, held it up, and without me saying a word her respose was "Ohhhh... that's how!" :D
 
Even the 120mm tank gun in the earlier M1 tanks had an effective range well beyond the sighting capabilities of the tank. And remember what it says on a box of .22 rimfire.
 
I belive it was the M2 that Carlos Hathcock used like a sniper rifle, he mounted a scope on it, and it has a slow enough rate of fire he could squeeze one of at a time, making the longest confirmed kill of the time.
 
There was experimentation with long range sniping using larger-than-rifle-caliber weapons in Korea and perhaps earlier. All that I have read about it suggested that it was mostly Americans who were interested and nearly all the weapons were converted to fire .50 BMG ammunition, presumably because they had lots and it was available in incendiary as well. The biggest thing, of course, is having suitable optical sighting to actually make use of the extended range.

Things like this only seem to happen during an actual war.
 
I belive it was the M2 that Carlos Hathcock used like a sniper rifle, he mounted a scope on it, and it has a slow enough rate of fire he could squeeze one of at a time, making the longest confirmed kill of the time.
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Be kinda hard to drag that thru the jungle quietly.
 
I belive it was the M2 that Carlos Hathcock used like a sniper rifle, he mounted a scope on it, and it has a slow enough rate of fire he could squeeze one of at a time, making the longest confirmed kill of the time.
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Be kinda hard to drag that thru the jungle quietly.
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The scoped M2 that Carlos Hatchcock used, which he positioned on a hill.

50bmg914.jpg

(http://www.bobtuley.com/50bmg914.jpg)
 
A young Army 2 Lt named List built a bolt action 50cal sniper rifle while he was in Vietnam. The stock was a cross tie and he scoped it with an Ultriel scope.

List was a master machinist when he entered service. He made some of the finest barrells ever. Among them is my 257 Roberts.
 
Ummm...no. Your wife had it right. Maximum range maybe. But definitely not effective range.
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Agreed.

It's much like the boxes of .22lr warning that the bullet can travel 1.5 miles (that's more than 2600 yards!) if unimpeded. Doesn't mean anyone can reliably hit anything at that range with a .22, or even 1/4 of that range.
 
Think of the snipers having to factor in the rotation of the earth for some of those really long shots. Neato!
 
Not the rotation, it's the CURVATURE of the Earths surface. Well, I guess rotation could become a factor if you were firing a long enough distance (it's why NASA launches rockets to the east) but for small-arms distances, the effect would be insignificant. Not that curvature is really a factor until you start getting to thousands-PLURAL-of yards.
 
I belive it was the M2 that Carlos Hathcock used like a sniper rifle, he mounted a scope on it, and it has a slow enough rate of fire he could squeeze one of at a time, making the longest confirmed kill of the time.
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No problems with the rate of fire on an M2.

Look at the picture of the tripod mounted M2, and note the butterfly handle between the grips. This is the actual trigger.

Between the butterfly trigger, you will note what appears to be a large button. This is the bolt latch-release.

If you load the M2 heavy machine gun and simply press the trigger, you will get one shot. That's it.

To place the weapon in full-auto mode, depress and hold the bolt release. On the part that is sticking out under the bolt release, there is a rotating collar with what appears to be a "C" clip on it. When rotated, the C-clip (bolt-latch release lock) holds the bolt-latch release in the down, or disengaged position. The gun will now rock and roll.
 
Think of the snipers having to factor in the rotation of the earth for some of those really long shots. Neato!
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Not the rotation, it's the CURVATURE of the Earths surface. Well, I guess rotation could become a factor if you were firing a long enough distance (it's why NASA launches rockets to the east) but for small-arms distances, the effect would be insignificant. Not that curvature is really a factor until you start getting to thousands-PLURAL-of yards.
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The curvature of the earth has nothing to do with what hes talking about. The other poster is referring to the coriolis effect. The earth and thus the rifle and the target continue to rotate, the bullet does not once it leaves the barrel. Because of this, a stationary target will not be in the same place it was when the bullet was fired.
 
The earth and thus the rifle and the target continue to rotate, the bullet does not once it leaves the barrel. Because of this, a stationary target will not be in the same place it was when the bullet was fired.
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The problem is even further complicated because the coriolis effect is different depending on were you are. The closer to the equator the less effect you have. It is also different of you are shooting on a north south line or an east west line. Even what hemisphere you are in changes things.

If you routinely need to take shots that it matters much I recommend you put an on board guidance system in your projectile or higher an old battleship gunner as your spotter. :)
 
The curvature of the earth supposedly had to be taken into account for the Paris gun in WWI, although I have no idea how they spotted the shots after they hit. But you only have to do that when firing in other than an East-West direction. For a small arms projectile, wind is more relevant.

For a 120mm tank gun, the on-board computer is supposed to be programmed with all sorts of things that affect the projectile, although I understand it isn't always done. Mostly things like temperature. At least one tank gun in the recent past had an insulated barrel to (theoretically) minimize changes because of heat. You might call stuff like that the racer's edge.
 
Another thing to note...

Making a 50 BMG sniper rifle in the field isn't easy by any stretch of the imagination. Much of the standard AP ammo issued even relatively recently was WWII vintage. Oh, they may have pulled the bullets and replaced the primer/powder, but the bullets were WWII. Why is this significant? The M2 was never intended to be horribly accurate. During WWII the idea was to just get lead to the soldier as fast as possible (so that he could send it downrange as fast as possible). Result: Quality control was terrible. The bullets may have been listed at 700 grains, but that didn't mean that they actually were - or that any given two were the same weight for that matter! And you didn't need a micrometer to measure the difference in ogive shape, you could *SEE* it.

The point: Military issue 50 BMG ammo was incapable of shooting tight patterns for a very long time. The guys in the field may have been able to put together some great guns, but unless they also assembled hand loading capabilities, their ammo was crap. Even then, Hatchcock's shot would have had to been as much luck as skill given the actual bullets he would have had access to in the field.
 
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Military issue 50 BMG ammo was incapable of shooting tight patterns for a very long time.
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True, but if you ever get a chance to shoot a 50 BMG do not pass it up. It is a lot of fun!
 
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