My two cents on the political bickering

Curtis(USAF)

New member
Its everyones favorite time of the year, irritating campaign commercials, talking heads galore, and an ever looming election day just over the horizon.

Yes there are a lot of scuzzy politicians in the news right now, and yes a certain preponderance of them come from a certain party that has rightly chosen a jackass for its symbol.

That being said folks, lets not get too personal on this. Bashing Hillary is one thing, Especially after that whole AWB bill that her husband ramrodded down the nations' throat. Cracking on Obama for being a young idealistic whippersnapper is okay, because basically its true. ;)

That being said, theres a good number of liberals roaming around in here, and they be packing heat just like the rest of us. Folks who in my opinion were too busy formulating the definitions of their liberal ideas to follow in lockstep with what their party higher ups were trying to tell them to do.

Folks like the pink pistols. You may not agree with what they do, you might call it down right disgusting or immoral. But this is America, and they have a right to defend themselves from any hoodlums who consider it manly to gather up a crew of ten people and pick on some skinny guy wearing lipstick and a pair of stilletto heals.

Folks like them old gentlemen I grew up with who were registered as democrats because they'd been registered as democrats since 1932 and they weren't about to change affiliations just because of a couple bad apples that popped up recently (recently being about the last twenty years straight)

Folks like my buddy Erics wife. That woman is a died in the wool feminist hippy who actually took classes at UC Berkely at one point in her life. She's still a hippie and feminist at heart, but now she's stuck on her "Right to Choose"....Between 38special and a 357 magnum.


I'm an old school fiscal conservative, who hates the Democratic party and all its higher ups with every mean spirited bone in my body, but I'm doing my personal best not to judge the fist full of liberals in here by the color of thier party leadership. I come from the party of Rumsfield and Bush, I figure I don't have much room to talk. Sure my party is generally on the right side of things as far as guns go, but they definitely screw up plenty of other stuff.

Lets keep if polite in here, no reason to get personal over politics, and especially politicians. They're all corrupt, in thier own special ways. But dang it, thats why we hunt, why we carry, and why we all walk tall. We aren't look for a savior in three piece suit to run the nation. We take care of ourselves, and no matter what happens we'll be alright. Because we're realistic, we're prepared, and we're willing to take responsibility for ourselves and our families.
 
I can relate to both sides. Grew up a hippy, still like the old R&R songs from the 60's. For years was a Dem, until wife and I started our own business. Once we got away from the "Government owes us" mentality, we got a look at the other side of life. Been a hard core Republican ever since then. Probably why we get so annoyed when people say "We want government health care, and we want this and we want that...." Agree, that people do have a right to there own opinions and beliefs. Just remember, when those opinions and beliefs start affecting other people, like our right to carry, or how our tax money is going to be spent, the resulting opinion is going to be equal and opposite." That being said, keep on truckin and enjoy life. :D
 
Gosh Curtis. That's the most reasonable post I've heard in the politics section in a long time. I was going to make some snarky comment about how fiscally conservative Bush is, but I'll hold back in the spirit of love and peace which you have inspired in me. You'd make a good hippy. I mean that in the best way.
 
Liberals are people too. Well at least the two or three I have met seemed to have human characteristics.:D And yes we should be civil to each other when posting.

But, this is not just any political forum, this is a political forum that is part of a gun forum. Many here think that keeping gun rights is an important issue. So, when liberals post they should understand they might get a little heat. It's not the conservatives that are trying to limit gun rights. In fact, by his own words, Obama is one of the leaders in trying to limit gun rights. So civil yes, but agreement no.
 
I completely agree, Curtis. But in response to those who say "Well yes I support RKBA, but there are lots of other issues that make me have to vote another way" let me clarify this: if you support someone to whom your rights are optional and negotiable, then what you will get, sooner or later, IS NO RIGHTS AT ALL. That's right, your right to do whatever else is on your daily schedule like walk your dog, take the kids to the school of your choosing, drive what car you want, go to the job of your choice, go to the church of your choice, and so on becomes nothing more than a priviledge that is borrowed at the mercy of people who can take it from you or redistribute it to other people at their slightest whim. YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS AT ALL, AND SOON ENOUGH NO FREEDOM if you tolerate someone who thinks "reasonable regulation" of any Constitutional right is necessary and good, let alone permissable in any way. You are just living on a wish. There is absolutely nothing at all to say that the same person can't declare your job illegal the next day. Your church illegal the day after that.

Oh wait, you say, that's ridiculous. They wouldn't do that. Just what, what mind you says they can't do it or that they won't? You're just basing your entire life on what they might not do? What you think and hope they won't do? That's about all you've got. "Oh, but they don't have any reason to!" They're very good at finding a reason, and don't ya know, they'll come up with a way to say it's good for you!

You own absolutely nothing you can't defend from someone taking it from you. You're just living on it borrowed from them, enjoying it only on the basis that they only haven't taken it from you yet.




Now you tell me how good an idea it is to support any ideology or any person who thinks anything you do, say, believe, own or enjoy to be optional is a good idea.
 
If the liberals were only voting away their own liberty and individual freedom I would agree. But, they are also voting MY liberty and freedom away. I tend to take it personally.
 
Political Bickering

This brings up another aspect. At least for me. It seems since the posting of the new rules that the civility has improved. Of course it still gets heated...too much sometimes. But I can remember when there was almost a patrol of people that would stop by any political thread and proceed to bend it into a race debate. Or they would just post an advocacy thread. It seems to me that these types transgressions have gone down, not up.

Also, this in comparison is a pretty civil forum. If you want a nasty adventure then visit some of the left wing forums and indicate you are for gun rights. Wow, these people use words that would put my old Army DI to shame. I am not saying their conduct should allow us to have bad conduct. Just that you will feel like you just arrived at Disney World on TFL after being at some of the left wing forums.

And maybe I should add. I don't visit them but I am sure some of the extreme right wing forums are also bad.
 
madmag,

I have observed the same things about the left wing sites like Democratic Underground, Huffington Post and Daily Kos. The language and, now infighting between Clinton and Obama supporters is disturbing to me. I feel like I need a shower if I go to those sites. The conservative sites like Freerepublic seem pretty tame by comparison. I find the discussions here pretty civil as well.
 
Yellowfin: I agree but a politician that says he will defend gun rights yet walk all over other rights is no better than a politician that says he will defend freedom of speech yet run over gun rights.

None of my rights are optional or negotiable but there are other things in the world equally as important as rights. At least to me.

madmag and mountainclmbr:

As I understand it, this is exactly what Curtis is talking about. You two are harping on liberals while ignoring the same faults in conservatives. Conservatives are also fond of voting away my liberty and freedom. There are plenty of conservative forums out there with language and attitudes equally as heinous as anything you'll find on DailyKos or DU. You're right, some of the extreme right wing forums are also bad so let's not pretend liberal forums are any worse.

I have plenty of socially liberal positions yet I'm still a supporter of the RKBA. Being divisive on this issue and ostracizing potential allies because they don't agree with your ideas on fiscal policy or marriage or education is counter-productive to retaining that right which protects all others.

The mistake of so many here is that they believe they can simply keep their extreme points of view regardless of how the rest of the public views them because they've still got their guns. Well, newsflash folks: no one is here is going to lead a revolution. This isn't Red Dawn or Jericho or Firefly. Keeping public perception is equally as important as keeping our guns cleaned and loaded.
 
You two are harping on liberals while ignoring the same faults in conservatives.

Hardly. Well I will speak for myself. Read any thread of mine and you will find I have been very critical of McCain and others of his elk. In fact, I have made many strong statements against McCain's views. So, I don't think not pointing out faults of co-called conservatives simply does not fit me. However, it's clear to me that the Obama's of this world hold an even more extreme view of curtailing gun rights. On this thread I merely pointed out that those that defend Obama's (or left wing) gun views should not be surprised at a strong response from this forum.

Now if you want to put forth that McCain is Mr. conservative, then you will get another round of negative responses.

There are plenty of conservative forums out there with language and attitudes equally as heinous as anything you'll find on DailyKos or DU.

I already pointed that out.

I will quote myself.
And maybe I should add. I don't visit them but I am sure some of the extreme right wing forums are also bad.
 
I thought we were talking about people who identify themselves as liberal or conservatives, not the politicians themselves. :confused:

McCain doesn't post here and Obama doesn't post on DU as far as I know. :p
 
I thought we were talking about people who identify themselves as liberal or conservatives, not the politicians themselves.

Now maybe I am wrong, but I am pretty sure I used left wing & right wing along with some specific names. If it makes it any better I can sub left wing for Obama...I kind of already did this. Now this is really getting to harping for real, and no progress. :confused:

So, I will just give it a rest for a while.
 
Redworm,

I am a libertarian who sees no reason for the government to legislate social issues unless it protects someone from being harmed by someone else. I guess that makes me socially liberal in the traditional sense of that word.

I have problems with McCain as well as Clinton and Obama. In general I have more problems with Democrats than Republicans, but both can be dangerous to individual liberty and freedom. I don't like any form of totalitarian government.
 
I am a libertarian who sees no reason for the government to legislate social issues unless it protects someone from being harmed by someone else. I guess that makes me socially liberal in the traditional sense of that word.
Agreed, though I would contend that being treated unequally under the law is a form of harm or at least something else that legislation should protect against.

Again, I'm not talking about the politicians themselves. I'm talking about the people, those of us that claim these titles of liberal, conservative, libertarian, or whatever. Conservatives are just as apt to vote for politicians that will infringe upon freedom and liberty as liberals; guns are not the only - nor even the most important - protectors of rights.

In general I have more problems with Republicans than Democrats yet that makes me no less a supporter of freedom and liberty than anyone else on this forum or any conservative in the nation. Folks need to realize that our goal should be to encourage more liberals to agree with us on guns, not to alienate them by whining about their fiscal and social policies. It only embitters them against listening to reason - something conservatives are equally guilty of in other areas - and hurts our cause.

We can't simply give up on recruiting more gun owners (or at least supporters of gun rights) simply because we have guns. We're not going to shoot liberals, overthrow the government or fight back against JBT's coming door-to-door with 4473s in hand. The best way to win the battle is by public perception.




and madmag, I was confirming what you were saying. yes, there are forums out there like that. just in case anyone else happening upon this thread was confused and considered the possibility that only liberals throw insults, use coarse language and spew hatred on their respective forums
 
We're not going to shoot liberals, overthrow the government or fight back against JBT's coming door-to-door with 4473s in hand.
I don't ever want to have to, but I also don't want what would make it the lesser of two bad choices for me to do so to happen either. The criteria for it is exactly like any other form of self defense: if there is a better way for you to do it, then take any other resort except the last one, but failure to use sufficient measure is the last mistake you'll get the chance to make.
 
Folks need to realize that our goal should be to encourage more liberals to agree with us on guns,

Agreed. Liberals that are ardent gun owners are important allies, and we should encourage, not discourage them.

Still, the idea of Hillary toting an AK47 is very scary to me. Sorry couldn't resist.:D
 
I don't like any form of totalitarian government.

I don't like authoritarianism in government either, and both Dems and Republicans can go that way. It's too bad that in order to get politicians who support gun rights we have to vote for ones who are happy to take away other rights.

The original post was about not being totally rude to liberals who also happen to be gun owners, so sorry to get off the subject. Great post, Curtis.

Folks need to realize that our goal should be to encourage more liberals to agree with us on guns, not to alienate them by whining about their fiscal and social policies.

Another good point!
 
I like to think of myself as a critically thinking enlightened realistic cynic and therefore, I am a misfit that fits in no party, although I did stay at a Holiday Inn last week.


WildwierdoAlaska TM
 
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