My wife has recently taken a big interest in trap shooting. She's strictly a beginner and has been shooting with me for about a year. Thus far her actions have been excellent with respect to learning safety etiquette. Then came the day... We were shooting trap and my wife was at her station and I was standing behind her off to her right. My wife is a guest at my gun club and per the rules we can't both shoot at the same time. I need to be in control of her at all times. This was only her 3rd outing shooting trap. The AD unfolded as she took position at the middle station (which is the easiest to shoot ), she then chambered a round, and then I asked if she wanted to move to a different station. She replied yes, she then attempted to thumb the safety to "safe" and BANG the chambered round went off.. luckily the gun was pointed downrange and into the dirt. My wife uses a Mossberg 9200 which uses a very stubborn stiff moving thumb style safety. We recreated why the AD happened and #1 was the fact she had her finger inside the trigger housing and was simultaneously trying to thumb the stubborn safety button to safe. I also take partial blame as I was not paying 100% attention to the fact she had a chambered round and I then asked her to move to a different station. I should have just waited to let her shoot, verify the gun was cleared/safe THEN allow her to move. So the two lessons learned, always keep your finger out of the trigger housing until on target, and as teachers do NOT let yourself be distracted by your new students firearms handling tasks.
My new student/wife experienced an AD... the lessons learned
- Thread starter Road_Clam
- Start date
Dave P said:
If I did not, a firearm does not belong in my hands, nor should I be teaching others. Not only did I initially express the 4 laws of safe handling, I also told my wife to read cove to cover my gun club's safey rule book. So let me rephrase per this comment : " always reiterate over and over keep your finger out of the trigger housing until on target to your new student"
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pgfins said:
+1 , She was extremly upset and scared. She wanted to pack up and leave. I just gave her a calm constructive safety speech , we recreated the AD situation , concluded what we both did incorrectly , how we will prevent this from happening again , I gave her an encouraging hug , and said "lets keep shooting" . She calmed down , got back into focus mode , and she shot great thereafter. So I see some positives , nobody got hurt, we got a hard schooling as to how quickly things can go wrong even when you are trying to be as safe as possible.
ac·ci·den·tal ˌaksəˈden(t)l/ adjective
1. happening by chance, unintentionally, or unexpectedly.
Unintentionally discharging the firearm while it is pointing downrange at the target area/berm/backstop may not be dangerous, but it still qualifies as an accidental discharge if it was unintentional.
I've seen a person accidentally discharge a pistol during a reload and actually hit the target. It was still an accident even though no one was endangered.
And, of course, even if an unintentional discharge happens at the range, it can still be dangerous if the gun isn't pointed in a safe direction.
It's critical to learn from this kind of mistake. Often, the first time a mistake like this is made, someone pays with life, limb, or at least property damage. If one gets a "free pass" as it were, that's something that should be capitalized on.
It's even more important for those reading to learn from the mistake. The ideal situation is to learn from the experience of others rather than making mistakes in person.
I prefer the term 'negligent discharge', as it reminds us that they're the shooter's fault, not the gun's. If the gun has a serious malfunction which causes it to fire without you touching the trigger, that's an accidental discharge. Otherwise, it's negligent.
I was using the OP's terminology.
I actually prefer the term 'unintentional discharge' because it is all-encompassing and therefore allows the discussion to focus on the important issues of what happened, what can be learned, how it can be prevented, instead of getting bogged down in semantics.
I actually prefer the term 'unintentional discharge' because it is all-encompassing and therefore allows the discussion to focus on the important issues of what happened, what can be learned, how it can be prevented, instead of getting bogged down in semantics.
After over 40 years of shooting Trap no one moves to the next post(OR OFF THE POST) with a round in the chamber ever . If she was not told this it is your mistake the first time . In the years spent on a Trap Range I have seen a lot of mistakes with shotguns (AND THINGE SHOT)most going down range . If anyone shoots long enough you will let one fly the idea is to always point the gun down range
buck460XVR
New member
AD....ND, semantics really don't matter. As long as no one got hurt, a lesson was learned and it doesn't happen again, why argue? In reality, it probably qualifies for an accidental negligent discharge. Funny, if the thread title was "dumb butt at the range" instead of "My wife" I wonder how many would have jumped all over the ND thing?
Road_Clam...kudos for the patience and the desire to get your wife into the shooting sports. The discharge was downrange, with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. That is why we have more than one rule of safety for firearms, in case someone breaks one. Removing rounds from the chamber of a pump/auto by racking the action is one reason I like break-action shotguns for use in sporting clays, trap or any other scenario where a shotgun is constantly loaded and unloaded. One can just open the gun and it's safe. One does not have to remove the shell from the chamber for the gun to be incapable of firing. Closing the action also puts the safety back on, unlike many pumps/autos.
Funny, if the thread title was "dumb butt at the range" instead of "My wife" I wonder how many would have jumped all over the ND thing?Road_Clam...kudos for the patience and the desire to get your wife into the shooting sports. The discharge was downrange, with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. That is why we have more than one rule of safety for firearms, in case someone breaks one. Removing rounds from the chamber of a pump/auto by racking the action is one reason I like break-action shotguns for use in sporting clays, trap or any other scenario where a shotgun is constantly loaded and unloaded. One can just open the gun and it's safe. One does not have to remove the shell from the chamber for the gun to be incapable of firing. Closing the action also puts the safety back on, unlike many pumps/autos.
An unexpected shot down range is a premature firing to me. A firing at a time and place where you didn't intend to shoot is an AD. This is all my own terminology and definitions.
I would NEVER under any circumstances say "negligent discharge." Very hip and fashionable in recent years to adopt this term but it's a really horrible idea. The word "negligent" is a legal term assigning responsibility. You mutter "I had a negligent discharge" to a cop or lawyer and you just assumed full legal responsibility for the event. I would rather not do that.
Just out of curiosity I asked my wife (the prosecutor) about this and she said that anyone in court admitting to being negligent would be owned by a civil attorney or prosecutor. Can't take it back once that word is out of your mouth. I strongly advise NOT getting in the habit of using that word.
I would NEVER under any circumstances say "negligent discharge." Very hip and fashionable in recent years to adopt this term but it's a really horrible idea. The word "negligent" is a legal term assigning responsibility. You mutter "I had a negligent discharge" to a cop or lawyer and you just assumed full legal responsibility for the event. I would rather not do that.
Just out of curiosity I asked my wife (the prosecutor) about this and she said that anyone in court admitting to being negligent would be owned by a civil attorney or prosecutor. Can't take it back once that word is out of your mouth. I strongly advise NOT getting in the habit of using that word.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
So what? Why should anyone care what your own terminology and definitions are? Indeed, I think your personal terminology and definitions here are pretty sloppy and dangerous.SaxonPig said:
I'll join with JohnKSa in preferring "unintentional discharge." And anytime the gun fires when you didn't intentionally cause it to fire by intentionally pressing the trigger is an unintentional discharge. If no one is hurt or if nothing important was damaged, that's good; but it doesn't change the fact that the gun fired when you didn't affirmatively intend it to.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Nope, the real issue everywhere -- including the classes I help teach and the classes I've taken, is that anytime the gun fires when you didn't affirmatively press the trigger to intentional cause it to fire is "wrong" -- sometimes called an AD, sometimes an ND, or, as some of us prefer, an unintentional discharge.Road_Clam said:
With reference to the Gunsite "Four Rules" an unintentional discharge occurs when one has ignored or violated Rule One ("All guns are always loaded.") and/or Rule Three ("Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.").
When one has also ignored or violated Rule Two ("Never let your muzzle cover anything you're not willing to destroy.") and/or Rule Four ("Always be sure of your target."), he can hurt someone or something with an unintentional discharge.
buck460XVR
New member
To me, doubles are also a "break-action". While one can generally use a single shot for trap, many stations at Sporting Clays courses(where I generally shoot) require you to shoot twice in rapid succession, thus the thought of using a single shot there never crossed my mind. Me bad.
g.willikers
New member
Three times to the range without understanding the part about keep your trigger finger off the trigger?
Maybe she needs more gun handling time, like dry firing?
Probably more important than range time.
Just a thought.
buck460XVR
I have never shot sporting only Trap . A single is king for singles or handicap . The Ljutic trap single has never had a safety and made for 40 years or more . I agree if the action is open it is safe (break open only)''
If anyone shooting Trap steps off the post with a close firearm with a shell in the chamber he/she will hear about it . That said a live round in an open break open is ok . ( at most clubs )
I also agree with never a finger on the trigger until ready to fire .
I have never shot sporting only Trap . A single is king for singles or handicap . The Ljutic trap single has never had a safety and made for 40 years or more . I agree if the action is open it is safe (break open only)''
If anyone shooting Trap steps off the post with a close firearm with a shell in the chamber he/she will hear about it . That said a live round in an open break open is ok . ( at most clubs )
I also agree with never a finger on the trigger until ready to fire .