I need some help here guys. Im looking to buy my first bolt action rifle. My current rifles basically include a ruger 10/22, an ar-15, and a marlin 30-30. Im looking for a decent bolt action rifle to give me a little more distance than the 30-30. Im hoping to find the perfect all around bolt action, to serve many uses, hunting medium to large game, target shooting ect. I've been debating between the .308 and the 30-06. Which should I go with??? And while we're at it, which company should I go with - remington, savage, ruger?? Any others? Dont forget... Im on a budget, and a $1000 rifle isnt in the budget. Thanks in advance for your help!
My first bolt action - Should I go .308 or 30-06??
- Thread starter Bob S
- Start date
Good luck in your hunt for the perfect all around rifle. When you find it, we will look for the perfect all around car, wife, house, etc.
If your intention is to have a good hunting rifle, the .308 is nearly as powerful as the .30-'06 and there is more surplus ammo around, where good .30-'06 surplus is getting scarce. Also, depending on the maker, the action may be shorter and easier to handle.
Any of the rifles you mention should give excellent accuracy, but if you really want a target rifle for serious competition, you are going to have to go way over your budget. Why not ask around among your friends and see if you can borrow one of each of the rifles you are considering? This will let you get the feel of each, then you can balance cost vs. appeal.
BTW, don't forget the Winchester; they are nice guns (now) and sadly underrated.
Jim
If your intention is to have a good hunting rifle, the .308 is nearly as powerful as the .30-'06 and there is more surplus ammo around, where good .30-'06 surplus is getting scarce. Also, depending on the maker, the action may be shorter and easier to handle.
Any of the rifles you mention should give excellent accuracy, but if you really want a target rifle for serious competition, you are going to have to go way over your budget. Why not ask around among your friends and see if you can borrow one of each of the rifles you are considering? This will let you get the feel of each, then you can balance cost vs. appeal.
BTW, don't forget the Winchester; they are nice guns (now) and sadly underrated.
Jim
I'd get a .308 Savage, Winchester or Remington. The Savage will cost you less and is quite accurate but there's a lot more aftermarket stuff for the Winchesters and Remingtons. Since it sounds like you might be into collecting guns, I recommend a .308 because you can share ammo with a FAL, HK-91, M1A and a Garand (rebarreled for .308) all rifles which any collector should have in his collection. Lots of surplus ammo is also available for plinking. In addition, the .308 is plenty of cartridge for medium and large game if the shot is placed well.
The 30-06 is a fine cartridge and more flexible if you reload, so you won't go wrong either way. Its just that with .308, you would be able to get by with less calibers in stock.
The 30-06 is a fine cartridge and more flexible if you reload, so you won't go wrong either way. Its just that with .308, you would be able to get by with less calibers in stock.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
For all that I personally prefer the '06, I see no reason to follow the above advice and go with a .308, instead. With factory or "GI" ammo, they're less costly to shoot. Up to 300 yards or so, they're about as good on deer as an '06. As was said, the primary advantage of the '06 is in reloading. You can get 200 to 300 feet per second more velocity, particularly with 180-grain or 220-grain bullets.
The .308, by virtue of its design, apparently works better than the '06 with, say, a 20" or 22" barrel. "Works better" meaning it doesn't lose as much velocity per inch of barrel reduction from the standard of 26" for the published velocities.
Brand? Unless you are planning on bench-rest accuracy, with very small groups, most any brand will work. There are a lot of good used guns out there, don't forget. Buy one of these little bore-scopes, and look down the hole in a gunstore's trade-ins. If it's not pitted nor flawed (as compared with a new gun), it might be what you want. You can often buy a used gun with scope for about the price of a bare, new gun.
If you run through the Archives, here, there are quite a few posts about "accurizing" and "floating a stock". Check them out and learn about tuning up whatever you buy.
Hope this helps, Art
The .308, by virtue of its design, apparently works better than the '06 with, say, a 20" or 22" barrel. "Works better" meaning it doesn't lose as much velocity per inch of barrel reduction from the standard of 26" for the published velocities.
Brand? Unless you are planning on bench-rest accuracy, with very small groups, most any brand will work. There are a lot of good used guns out there, don't forget. Buy one of these little bore-scopes, and look down the hole in a gunstore's trade-ins. If it's not pitted nor flawed (as compared with a new gun), it might be what you want. You can often buy a used gun with scope for about the price of a bare, new gun.
If you run through the Archives, here, there are quite a few posts about "accurizing" and "floating a stock". Check them out and learn about tuning up whatever you buy.
Hope this helps, Art
TheOtherMikey
New member
I need to clarify a point which you stated. You indicated you are interested in taking medium to large game. In North America, medium game translates to deer (Whitetale and Mule), antelope, some bear, and maybe moose. It does not translate to game such as elk, large bear, and maybe not moose.
The difference between the performance of a .308 and a 30-06 is almost negligable. The 30-06 may have a 100 fps advantage on the .308 and may be able to handle heavier weight projectiles better.
Anything considered "big" on the North American Continent needs at least a .300 Win Mag....and most experienced elk hunters are using the .338 Win Mag or the .338 Lapua.
Big game on another continent (Say Africa) is a whoooooole different ball game. Can you say .458 and .416 mag (select your own flavor).
Hope this helps and keeps you from becomming "big" game fodder, Mikey
The difference between the performance of a .308 and a 30-06 is almost negligable. The 30-06 may have a 100 fps advantage on the .308 and may be able to handle heavier weight projectiles better.
Anything considered "big" on the North American Continent needs at least a .300 Win Mag....and most experienced elk hunters are using the .338 Win Mag or the .338 Lapua.
Big game on another continent (Say Africa) is a whoooooole different ball game. Can you say .458 and .416 mag (select your own flavor).
Hope this helps and keeps you from becomming "big" game fodder, Mikey
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
TheOtherMikey: Gosh, Jack O'Connor's comments about how neat the .270 was for all those elk he/his wife killed musta been BS...
I wanna see a .308 drive a 180-grain bullet 2,800 like my '06, without flattening primers. 200 ft/sec ain't a lot, but out at 400 or 500 yards it's seven inches and twelve inches more drop, respectively, per the Sierra book. And that book doesn't list a .308 load for the 220-grain bullet, as it does for the '06.
I got into this .308 vs. .30-'06 thing a few months back with a buddy of mine. I shot his .308 and factory ammo, and my '06 with reasonable-max handloads. Both with 150-grainers. At 400 yards, I held one foot less windage and one foot less holdover with my '06.
I doubt that a deer or elk would notice the difference in velocity or energy. But flatter trajectories mean more reliable hits.
I wanna see a .308 drive a 180-grain bullet 2,800 like my '06, without flattening primers. 200 ft/sec ain't a lot, but out at 400 or 500 yards it's seven inches and twelve inches more drop, respectively, per the Sierra book. And that book doesn't list a .308 load for the 220-grain bullet, as it does for the '06.
I got into this .308 vs. .30-'06 thing a few months back with a buddy of mine. I shot his .308 and factory ammo, and my '06 with reasonable-max handloads. Both with 150-grainers. At 400 yards, I held one foot less windage and one foot less holdover with my '06.
I doubt that a deer or elk would notice the difference in velocity or energy. But flatter trajectories mean more reliable hits.
Stephen A. Camp
Staff In Memoriam
Hello all. I'd say that unless you want the short bolt that the .308 allows and insist on interchangibility of ammo for weapons you already own, go with the .30-06. It is just a bit more powerful and can push heavier slugs just a little faster than the .308Win.
As to rifles, good suggestions have been given, but I add that you might look at the CZ/BRNO line of rifles. Using a modified Mauser '98 action, they offer controlled feed, which many like, and are, in my opinion, very elegant. After glass bedding my rifles (BRNO '06 & .375 H&H) both do under moa at 100 yards. But, back to the original question: Either round will do. Should you take elk or moose, do go with a premium bullet as you'll want all the penetration you can get and don't expect as good a blood trail as with the .338 or .375H&H. That said, I've killed several elk with .270 Win and .30-06 as well as 1 Canadian moose with a .270. Best and good luck.
As to rifles, good suggestions have been given, but I add that you might look at the CZ/BRNO line of rifles. Using a modified Mauser '98 action, they offer controlled feed, which many like, and are, in my opinion, very elegant. After glass bedding my rifles (BRNO '06 & .375 H&H) both do under moa at 100 yards. But, back to the original question: Either round will do. Should you take elk or moose, do go with a premium bullet as you'll want all the penetration you can get and don't expect as good a blood trail as with the .338 or .375H&H. That said, I've killed several elk with .270 Win and .30-06 as well as 1 Canadian moose with a .270. Best and good luck.
Posted on The Firing Line 10-30-99
Bob,I prefer rifles that have short actions and short barrels (22" or less). That is a province for which .308 is well suited. I have killed Antelope, Deer, Black Bears and Elk with a .308 and I have only praise for this caliber. Nothing against the venerable 06, but the .308 just works better in the rifles I prefer to carry.
Bob,I prefer rifles that have short actions and short barrels (22" or less). That is a province for which .308 is well suited. I have killed Antelope, Deer, Black Bears and Elk with a .308 and I have only praise for this caliber. Nothing against the venerable 06, but the .308 just works better in the rifles I prefer to carry.
The late Col. Townsend Whelan once said,"The 30-06 is never a mistake." I agree. While I favor the .308 Win. for most of my hunting,I have to say that there is not any animal on this planet that has not been taken with the 30-06. (Excluding whales, of course, and they may have been taken too, for all I know.)
Some Alaskan Brown bear guides insist that you bring nothing smaller than the .338 Win. Mag. for bears. Why? If you flinch because of the recoil, what good is the .338? A good 200 to 220 gr. .30 cal. in the right place beats hell out of a .338 in the wrong place.
A point to ponder. Some .308 ammo actually has a higher muzzle velocity than some 30-06 ammo.
As I grow older, my 30-06's seem to gain weight faster than I do. 7 and 8 pound rifles are no longer fun at 9,000 plus feet elevation. My favorite rifle is a Ruger International in .308 Win. It spits a 165 gr. Speer handload out at 2550 fps, drops deer at any range out to 250 yards ( the longest shot I have had to take with it so far)and is a joy to carry. I can load any bullet I need to hunt with, including 220 gr. Sierras. Early on in this century, the 30-40 Krag was considered a better elk rifle than the 06. Bullet construction was not as good then, as now, and 220 gr. bullets in an 06 would break up too soon, while the same bullets held up well and penetrated elk in a satisfactory manner. The Krag shot a 220 gr. bullet at about 2,000FPS. I can shoot a 220 gr. Sierra at 2250 FPS from the 18 inch barrel of my Ruger. I get 2,300 FPS from a .308 Win. Model 70 Winchester with the same bullet.(22 inch barrel) Accuracy in the Winchester is superb, more than adequate in the Ruger.
Another aside. Meat hunters in Africa routinely kill Cape Buffalo with .308's using, I believe 150 gr. military full metal jacket ammo.
My personal opinion? You can't go wrong with either round. Buy the rifle that appeals the most to you.
Paul B.
Some Alaskan Brown bear guides insist that you bring nothing smaller than the .338 Win. Mag. for bears. Why? If you flinch because of the recoil, what good is the .338? A good 200 to 220 gr. .30 cal. in the right place beats hell out of a .338 in the wrong place.
A point to ponder. Some .308 ammo actually has a higher muzzle velocity than some 30-06 ammo.
As I grow older, my 30-06's seem to gain weight faster than I do. 7 and 8 pound rifles are no longer fun at 9,000 plus feet elevation. My favorite rifle is a Ruger International in .308 Win. It spits a 165 gr. Speer handload out at 2550 fps, drops deer at any range out to 250 yards ( the longest shot I have had to take with it so far)and is a joy to carry. I can load any bullet I need to hunt with, including 220 gr. Sierras. Early on in this century, the 30-40 Krag was considered a better elk rifle than the 06. Bullet construction was not as good then, as now, and 220 gr. bullets in an 06 would break up too soon, while the same bullets held up well and penetrated elk in a satisfactory manner. The Krag shot a 220 gr. bullet at about 2,000FPS. I can shoot a 220 gr. Sierra at 2250 FPS from the 18 inch barrel of my Ruger. I get 2,300 FPS from a .308 Win. Model 70 Winchester with the same bullet.(22 inch barrel) Accuracy in the Winchester is superb, more than adequate in the Ruger.
Another aside. Meat hunters in Africa routinely kill Cape Buffalo with .308's using, I believe 150 gr. military full metal jacket ammo.
My personal opinion? You can't go wrong with either round. Buy the rifle that appeals the most to you.
Paul B.
I just heard about this place. I think I will drop in quite often.
Personally, I prefer .308. I just like the round. However you could not go wrong with an 06.
As far as the rifle goes, I used to spend thousands to build the "perfect" rifle. I would start with a Remington 700 action, add a Douglas air gauged, fluted bbl. I only used Timney triggers and McMillan stocks. About 6 years ago I started shooting competition sporting clays and sold all of my rifles. I just recently got interested in rifles again and picked up a Savage model 12 w/ stainless fluted bull bbl in .308. This thing is a shooter. For $459 asking price for a new target rifle I am completely happy. It's not as pretty as a Remington, but it is a shooter.
Don't neglect to put a good piece of glass on what ever you choose. I also picked up a Burris Black Diamond 4-12 X 50 at SWFA for under $400. Add in $40 for mount and rings and you have a very nice shooter that will last the rest of your life for about $900 total. Remember, your rifle is only as good as the glass.
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Giz
www.gizdog.com
[This message has been edited by Giz (edited November 01, 1999).]
Personally, I prefer .308. I just like the round. However you could not go wrong with an 06.
As far as the rifle goes, I used to spend thousands to build the "perfect" rifle. I would start with a Remington 700 action, add a Douglas air gauged, fluted bbl. I only used Timney triggers and McMillan stocks. About 6 years ago I started shooting competition sporting clays and sold all of my rifles. I just recently got interested in rifles again and picked up a Savage model 12 w/ stainless fluted bull bbl in .308. This thing is a shooter. For $459 asking price for a new target rifle I am completely happy. It's not as pretty as a Remington, but it is a shooter.
Don't neglect to put a good piece of glass on what ever you choose. I also picked up a Burris Black Diamond 4-12 X 50 at SWFA for under $400. Add in $40 for mount and rings and you have a very nice shooter that will last the rest of your life for about $900 total. Remember, your rifle is only as good as the glass.
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Giz
www.gizdog.com
[This message has been edited by Giz (edited November 01, 1999).]
Hi,
If this is a hunting rifle only BUY A .30-06'. Period. If this is more of an all around utility rifle buy a .308 "Scout" type rifle.
Why?: A .30-06' WILL KILL ANYTHING IN NORTH AMERICA in the hands of a competent rifleman. A .308 may not (this is not to say that a .308 wont drop a Kodiak Island Griz with the right shot, it is just a little more difficult). The .30-06' can handle the heavier loads better i.e. 180 grain, 200 and 220 grain bullets.
These heavy bullets will take anything on the continent even the Big Bears. Yes a .30-06 is "enough" gun for elk too.
The .308 cant hang with the 06' once you start getting into the heavier bullet weights. If we are talking strictly whitetails with a 150 grain bullet, and the 2 legged varmints for defense, there is no difference between the two cartridges ballistically with 150 grainers. Maybe -150 to 200 fps with a .308.
If this is a hunting rifle only BUY A .30-06'. Period. If this is more of an all around utility rifle buy a .308 "Scout" type rifle.
Why?: A .30-06' WILL KILL ANYTHING IN NORTH AMERICA in the hands of a competent rifleman. A .308 may not (this is not to say that a .308 wont drop a Kodiak Island Griz with the right shot, it is just a little more difficult). The .30-06' can handle the heavier loads better i.e. 180 grain, 200 and 220 grain bullets.
These heavy bullets will take anything on the continent even the Big Bears. Yes a .30-06 is "enough" gun for elk too.
The .308 cant hang with the 06' once you start getting into the heavier bullet weights. If we are talking strictly whitetails with a 150 grain bullet, and the 2 legged varmints for defense, there is no difference between the two cartridges ballistically with 150 grainers. Maybe -150 to 200 fps with a .308.
For the all-around utility rifle, I would have said 308 or 7mm-08 if you didn't already have the .30-30. But since you've got that middle ground covered, I'd go for the .30-'06 definitely, or possibly .300 WinMag, which as mentioned should be better for big bears or moose if you can afford to get up north.
BTW, I've been thinking about cartridges a little lately, and consider this speculation about the .280 Rem aka 7mm rem expr (if I'm way off, it's because this is armchair quarterbacking - I've never done a lot of hunting): seems to me this is about the perfect all-around north american hunting round IFF you are NOT hunting the alaskan bears or moose. IINM, It's just between .270 and .30-'06, with the same powder capacity, so it seems a perfect compromise betwteen these two colossally famous cartridges. It has the selection of 7mm bullets, second only to .308 bullets, and much more than .277. It comes within 200-300 fps of the 7mm rem mag, which is enormously popular now, with less shoulder punishment. A 175 gr 7mm bullet has an excellent BC for long-range shooting, is amply adequate for elk down, and can be pushed pretty fast. It can take lighter bullets like 115-130 gr if you shoot varmints with much better BCs than .308 bullets in those weights, so it's a great varminter as well. Only drawback is you can't go 200 or 220. Please agree or flame away.
Personally, I've noticed several experienced african hunters who write that they take much or all of the game with a .338 Win Mag, and have no need for the .416s or .458s or express rifles.
[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited November 01, 1999).]
BTW, I've been thinking about cartridges a little lately, and consider this speculation about the .280 Rem aka 7mm rem expr (if I'm way off, it's because this is armchair quarterbacking - I've never done a lot of hunting): seems to me this is about the perfect all-around north american hunting round IFF you are NOT hunting the alaskan bears or moose. IINM, It's just between .270 and .30-'06, with the same powder capacity, so it seems a perfect compromise betwteen these two colossally famous cartridges. It has the selection of 7mm bullets, second only to .308 bullets, and much more than .277. It comes within 200-300 fps of the 7mm rem mag, which is enormously popular now, with less shoulder punishment. A 175 gr 7mm bullet has an excellent BC for long-range shooting, is amply adequate for elk down, and can be pushed pretty fast. It can take lighter bullets like 115-130 gr if you shoot varmints with much better BCs than .308 bullets in those weights, so it's a great varminter as well. Only drawback is you can't go 200 or 220. Please agree or flame away.
Personally, I've noticed several experienced african hunters who write that they take much or all of the game with a .338 Win Mag, and have no need for the .416s or .458s or express rifles.
[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited November 01, 1999).]
I own both 308 & 30-06 & my advice...buy a rifle that you like & that fits you best. I haven't see (in north America) much advantage of one over the other (unless your really going north). My 308's a featherweight Winchester for hunting, & a heavy barrel Remington 700 for target (& it is a tack driver). My 30-06, a Weatherby Vanguard, mainly used hunting.
p.s. no mater what rifle you get, Buy a good scope. With most quality rifles your what makes the difference and the better you can see.........
p.s. no mater what rifle you get, Buy a good scope. With most quality rifles your what makes the difference and the better you can see.........
cartman308
New member
ok guys. all you hafta do to find my bias is read my signature line.
there very little differance between the .308 and '06 at any range or any weight in facotry ammo. handloading is a different beast.
if a '06 can kill it so can a .308.
shot placement is overruling in killing power not velocity, kenetic energy, etc.
shots at over 300 yard at game should NEVER be taken by the average hunter, so the reported adantage of the '06 (which doesn't exist) does not matter. only highly skilled marksmen should even consider this kind of shot and the .308/'06 arn't the best cals. for this.
just my $.02
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.308 WIN: The ONLY cartridge you will EVER need!
there very little differance between the .308 and '06 at any range or any weight in facotry ammo. handloading is a different beast.
if a '06 can kill it so can a .308.
shot placement is overruling in killing power not velocity, kenetic energy, etc.
shots at over 300 yard at game should NEVER be taken by the average hunter, so the reported adantage of the '06 (which doesn't exist) does not matter. only highly skilled marksmen should even consider this kind of shot and the .308/'06 arn't the best cals. for this.
just my $.02
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.308 WIN: The ONLY cartridge you will EVER need!
Given the conditions you put down, it's more a question of what you find, and what feels good, and what you can afford. Pay far more attention to the rifle than the caliber.
The trade-offs between .308 and .30-06 are dead even. (Shorter action vs. 150 fps more velocity, etc.) It would be a real shame if you got your heart all set on, say, a M-70 '06, and passed up a good deal on a short-action Savage 110 .308, if the latter shot and felt better than the former, why not get it?
Try 'em, sight 'em. Snap 'em, if they'll let you. Don't be disdainful of used, but check 'em out carefully. Older (non MkII) Ruger 77's are great, all new M-70's are great, can't go wrong with a Rem 700, and Save 110's and the like are the great bargain. The wonderful thing is, you have to choose from all the above...
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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?
Matt
The trade-offs between .308 and .30-06 are dead even. (Shorter action vs. 150 fps more velocity, etc.) It would be a real shame if you got your heart all set on, say, a M-70 '06, and passed up a good deal on a short-action Savage 110 .308, if the latter shot and felt better than the former, why not get it?
Try 'em, sight 'em. Snap 'em, if they'll let you. Don't be disdainful of used, but check 'em out carefully. Older (non MkII) Ruger 77's are great, all new M-70's are great, can't go wrong with a Rem 700, and Save 110's and the like are the great bargain. The wonderful thing is, you have to choose from all the above...
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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?
Matt