My experience with the ATF.

T

thump_rrr

New member
I am a Canadian living close to the U.S. Border.
I filled out a form 6NIA application so that I could bring my firearms and ammunition into the USA.
Within several days I received an email from an agent stating that I forgot to state the model number of some firearms.
I replied with an updated form last Thursday and the next afternoon my permit was approved.
In sending me my permit they omitted to send one page which I didn't notice till last night.
Last night I sent an email to the same agent stating that the last page was missing and by 8:15AM this morning I had an email with the missing page.

I have never seen such great service from any government entity in Canada or any other country for that matter.

I don't know if it is just this agent who is very efficient at his job or the agency as a whole but I was impressed.
 
I have heard of people having good customer service with local agents, but that's typically where it stops. The BATFE is (in my opinion) a bloated, inefficient and largely unnecessary organization. For instance, it's their job to keep track of the legally owned and registered machine guns in the US, and their own agents have admitted there may be a margin of error of 50%!

However, it's great that your agent gave you great service and responded quickly. From what I hear, a lot of the people working there are gun people themselves and are generally for making it easy for law abiding people to follow the rules. I wish the organization as a whole had that attitude
 
I had a great relationship with our local ATF. They were very helpful and professional (even if the front doors to their offices were always locked, and the secretary had to buzz you in, after giving you the long, hairy eyeball :rolleyes:).

Once I dealt with them, I never called the Philly or DC offices again. Seems the further you got from the local office, the dumber and more arrogant and confrontational they became. I was constantly getting conflicting, and outright wrong answers from them. I had one boy in DC tell me I couldnt own a machine gun in PA, and the state police were going to come arrest me. :rolleyes: I asked if that were the case, why they (the ATF) had given me the tax stamps for the ones I had. There was a long silence, then he stuttered, hemmed and hawed a bit, and then asked me what my name and address was (pre caller ID days). I just laughed and said naaaa, I dont think so, and hung up.


I think they are like any other government agency/entity, and they have their good and bad people. I used to deal with a couple of state agencies on a regular basis, and it wasnt hard to tell, who the entrenched, lazy "do nothings" were. You also quickly learned who the "go to" people were, if you wanted help or results.

Then you also have all the misinformation you often hear about the ATF, in gun shops, gun shows, the internet, etc. Gun people seem to love to be afraid of them, and hate them, and again, very often based on hearsay, fear mongering, etc, more than anything else.
 
I went through a pattern of denial and avoidance for a year trying to get a short barrel license. I resubmitted it a second time. Called and got stalled. Called again a few months later on a Monday. I was told the whole office got moved to a different state. The gal on the phone was very apologetic and said they'd had lots of cases of the old office just not doing their job and they were picking up the pieces. She found my application and nothing had been done with it. She said she'd "get it in for Friday". I thought she meant they'd start processing it on Friday. No...the license was in my mailbox on Friday.
 
Just got my C&R FFL03 renewal forms 90 days in advance of current expiration. Certainly nothing wrong with ATF in that regard.

I'm debating renewal, do I need to decline to renew on the form and return or just let it lapse without reply, should I decide not to renew?
 
With one exception, I've found the folks at the NFA branch to be more professional than the employees at many private businesses.
 
I can't bad mouth them. I have asked a few questions now and then, and if they did not know they said they would get back to me. And did.
 
I've never had a problem with ATF either. When I submitted my Form 1 for a USAS-12, it sailed through with no problem, even though I registered it about 2 years after the deadline. They were also fairly responsive to me when I submitted my form 4 for a machinegun purchase some years later. And, no, I've never had ATF come a knocking on the door in the middle of the night (or any other time) to do a surprise inspection! (I admit, years before I had any experience with NFA items, I believed this to be true.)

The people who badmouth BATFE tend to fall into several categories:

1. Those that never had any experience at all with BATFE but heard from a buddy's best friend's Dojo instructor that BATFE eats little babies with gunpowder sauce.

2. Sloppy FFL's who can't keep track of their inventory and think recording transactions in their bound book is optional for months ending in the letter "r" or beginning with the letter "j".

3. People who think it's no big deal to make and sell full-auto sten guns assembled from tube kits and parts sets without having a Class II manufacturer's license.
 
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The only run in I ever had with the BATFE was way back when I was living in Winnemucca Nevada. I'd been hemming and hawing for a bit over a week on whether I should buy an S&W 6" M66 or not. One day while looking it one more time, the owner and I were talking small talk anyway when two guys came in, walked up to the gun display and one guy said I want that one pointing to the M66. So they start up the paperwork and the guy is from California so Pete cannot sell him the gun. The other guy says I'll buy it for him and Pete gets ready to start the paper work and I say to him, "Pete, I'll take the gun." The one guy gets really -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- off and says that he was first. Pete tells him that I've been thinking on that gun for the past week. I call the guy out as being BATFE and he just tried to pull a sting. He gets even madder and the four letter words were flying. I told Pete to call Frank, Frank being the sheriff and Frank's not only there but the Chief of Police as well. I tell Frank what the deal appeared to be and he called these guys out. They were BATFE. Frank ordered them to leave town within the hour and not come back or he'd find a reason to arrest them. They left. The one I called out told me he's get me. It's been at least 40 years since that incident and he ain't got me yet. Haven't had anything to do with them ever since and I plan to keep it that way. I don't trust them.
Paul B.
 
Paul B. said:
So they start up the paperwork and the guy is from California so Pete cannot sell him the gun. The other guy says I'll buy it for him and Pete gets ready to start the paper work
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Wait a second. The owner was about to break federal law and sell a gun to an obvious straw-purchaser before you stepped in?

It's the BATFE's job to enforce laws against straw purchases. Most gun owners I know would much rather have the BATFE focus more on prosecuting things like illegal straw purchases instead of stupid things like putting a soda bottle on the end of a .22 or a vertical grip on an AR pistol. Sure, when law enforcement sets up sting operations it often seems like they're playing dirty (and often they are), but if your friend Pete was so willing to illegally sell a firearm to someone who was committing an obvious straw purchase, my guess is that he had done this previously. I'd be willing to bet that the BATFE was there because they suspected Pete had done this before and they were trying to catch him in the act.

Paul B. said:
I call the guy out as being BATFE and he just tried to pull a sting. He gets even madder and the four letter words were flying.
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I can't say I blame him. His job was to catch dealers who are willing to help criminals get guns by allowing straw purchases. You intervened in what could have been a good bust.

This story amazes me. As law-abiding gun owners, many of us are constantly pointing out that politicians should focus more on prosecuting the current laws that are designed to keep guns out of the hands of criminals instead of enacting more laws that punish us law-abiding gun owners. Your friend Pete was willing help someone buy a gun who couldn't legally purchase one, and you're mad that the BATFE was trying to bust him for it?
 
Pete's son usually did all the firearms stuff at that store. He was out of the store and frankly I don't think Pete had a clue about straw sales. Usually when a customer wanted to buy a firearm, he would call his son to handle it.
Yeah I know ignorance e of law is no excuse BS but this has always smacked to me as entrapment, and I don't give a damn if the courts say otherwise. If I was in charge I'd probably abolish the BATFE or tone them down a whole bunch. Remember, back 40 years ago they were a more gestapo like bunch of jack booted thugs. I still think they are, even if polite ones now,
Paul B.
 
I'm not saying I'm a huge fan of BATFE - I'm not a huge fan of any government agency. I also think that the various state police departments are just as capable of enforcing firearms laws within the US borders as BATFE.

But, if BATFE or other law enforcement don't run sting operations, how would you propose that law enforcement shut down gun dealers who are intentionally selling guns to people who they legally shouldn't be selling them to?
 
Paul B. The only run in I ever had with the BATFE was way back when I was living in Winnemucca Nevada. I'd been hemming and hawing for a bit over a week on whether I should buy an S&W 6" M66 or not. One day while looking it one more time, the owner and I were talking small talk anyway when two guys came in, walked up to the gun display and one guy said I want that one pointing to the M66. So they start up the paperwork and the guy is from California so Pete cannot sell him the gun. The other guy says I'll buy it for him and Pete gets ready to start the paper work and I say to him, "Pete, I'll take the gun." The one guy gets really -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- off and says that he was first. Pete tells him that I've been thinking on that gun for the past week. I call the guy out as being BATFE and he just tried to pull a sting. He gets even madder and the four letter words were flying. I told Pete to call Frank, Frank being the sheriff and Frank's not only there but the Chief of Police as well. I tell Frank what the deal appeared to be and he called these guys out. They were BATFE. Frank ordered them to leave town within the hour and not come back or he'd find a reason to arrest them. They left. The one I called out told me he's get me. It's been at least 40 years since that incident and he ain't got me yet. Haven't had anything to do with them ever since and I plan to keep it that way. I don't trust them.
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Your friend Pete, Frank the Sheriff and the Chief of Police are idiots of the highest order.
 
BATF was originally founded as a TAX enforcement agency, due to the fact that Federal excise taxes were imposed on alcohol tobacco and firearms.

It has now evolved into a repressive, bureaucratic "police" agency that determines who may or may not have a firearm, and has even sunk to the level of illegal activities to advance its agenda ('Fast and Furious").

Anyone dealing with BATFE now had best watch their backs.
 
Gyvel. You left out that the 1968 gun control law was none other that a slightly modified version of Adolph Hitler's 1938 gun law. Modified just enough to classify who would be ineligible to have firearms.
Senator Thomas Dodd who took part in the Nuremberg trial proceedings got a copy, had it translated and along with Congressman Emmanual Cellars rammed it through the House and Senate shortly after the murders of Dr, King and the Kennedy brothers.
I took a very strong dislike when the then ATF shot Kenyon Ballew. Several years later there was an article on the abuses of the BATF, now called the BATFE.
For the record, I am a one issue voter. My guns.
Paul B.
 
About 6 yrs. ago a friend that owned a gun shop died in an auto accident. His father asked me to help take care of shutting the shop down. I contacted a lady from ATF and she stayed around for some time getting all the records in order while I sold off everything from the shop. We managed to sell out the shop in a couple months, gave her boxes of records to take with her and locked the doors. I have to say she understood the situation and did her best to help and not hinder us in our endeavors. She gave my friends and I a hug on the way out of the shop and I've never heard from her since.
While I'm sure there are a lot of gung ho agents out there with ATF, some of them are pleasant to work with and can be downright helpful!
 
My only dealings with ATF was when I applied for a FFL in the early 90s. The agent I dealt with was a terrific guy that bent over backward in his effort to make my license easier to acquire. At the time I got it, I was told I got it much faster than any of my buddies, and they were a bit miffed.:D Haven't had to deal with them for any of the bad stuff, leastwise not yet.
 
I've had several dealings with the NFA branch recently. I can say that they have been super helpful in clearing up some questions and it reflects very well upon them.

Like any large bureaucracy you will have good folks and not so good folks, along with great folks and absolutely useless types.
 
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