My Crude FMJ/HP Test

J

JakeSnakeSlim

New member
Well this is my crude, unscientific test I just did. I was surprised by the lack of penetration of all 3, especially the Gold Dot. I thought I would be digging the bullets out of the 2x6 but they never made it.

Pic #1
Water filled Milk Jug/4" of dry newspaper/2x6 board
P5220006.jpg


Shot from a distance of 1 foot

Gun - 38 Special Taurus 85 snubby

Ammo - Buffallo Bore 158g LSWCHP standard pressure load.
Results - Passed through the water jug and penetrated 3" of newspaper - fully expanded to .625" as designed.

Gun - 380 Colt Mustang

Ammo - Speer Gold Dot
Results - Dented the back of water jug but remained in the jug - fully expanded to .5" as designed.

Ammo - WWB/FMJ/FN - Passed through water jug and penetrated 3" of newspaper - No expansion.

Pic#2
recovered bullets
P5220012.jpg
 
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Ok, this is a little direct, but this is my opinion on your test.

As you said, your test is crude. It's so crude that it just does not mean much. The (limited) results are as expected. But limited is the key word. You are comparing a .380 (I am guessing at about 100g) to a .38 spl. at 158g.

The results are too limited to tell much about anything. FMJ will penetrate better than an HP, but that's not news.

Try more with just one caliber and more variations in ammo types.
 
While I agree they it is a crude test I have to give you a GREAT thanks for sharing. So many on these site just parrot others research. I myself have done so on a few occasions. I was took to task on a few statement and have learned that either I state facts I have preformed or witnessed myself or I qualify any statement as to its origin. I have had the privalage of shoot much big game and was smart enough to study the results of the wounds. However I failed to write down the results till well after my guiding career was over, relying on my fast vanishing memory. I do experement often on recently downed deer and elk as well as other large varmits. It is an interesting experement none the less and quite imformative on the 3 loads tested.
 
I'll get right on it

MadMag
Yes Sir Boss,

I'll be trying some wet pak newspaper test with the same ammo. It's what I have and I just wanted some comparative data on it and I can find nothing about the 38 special BB (soft lead) standard load LSWCHP designed for snubs. Also want this time to see if I can duplicate the excellent test data on this web site, just for sport.
http://usrange.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=8506881ee21033bc1b647f6cd35bb45f&board=39.0

Thanks for your excellent observation about 380 and 38 special being different though, and who could know they are different weights, go figure, your encouragement is well....... , we'll leave it at that.:rolleyes:

I'm just a beginner at this and everyone has to start somewhere, I hope my next attempt meets your expectations of a sophisticated ammo test.:)
 
Nice work, like 30-30 I appreciate your efforts. I find your results intriguing, especially as they reinforce my choice of BB 158gr LSWCHP as the ammo of choice for my wife's S&W 315 Night Guard and why I seldom carry my Kel-tec P3AT, except in situations where no other gun would fit. I'll be looking forward to posts on future experiments.
 
I am sure folks will disagree, but given a choice between penetration and expansion, I will take penetration every time. Expansion is mostly a non-factor since the slightly enlarged wound channel is rarely important in stopping an attacker, but it can be a factor in reducing penetration, resulting in failure to reach vital organs.

There is a prevalent, and nonsensical, idea that a person hit by, say a FMJ 9mm Luger bullet will just ignore the slight discomfort, while a person hit by an even moderately expanding bullet will instantly be blown to smithereens and dissolve in a cloud of ragged flesh. Of course, makers of expanding bullets claim the latter; I can't imagine why.

Jim
 
JakeSnakeSlim said:
I'm just a beginner at this and everyone has to start somewhere, I hope my next attempt meets your expectations of a sophisticated ammo test.
Click to expand...

Some times us old timers are too direct. Anyway, thanks for your effort.
 
JakeSnakeSlim, I doubt that any particular type of medium is perfect. Too many "what if's" involved.

The bigshot labs use ordnance gelatin, but that's too expensive for most of us. Fortunately, a lot of those lab results have already been published.

Several years ago I experimented with various handgun bullets in a long tub of water. When I compared my results to published lab tests, I could not find any correlation between "water performance" and "gelatin performance"....

Anyway, thanks for sharing, and experiment safely.
 
Why I want to experiment--

I have a 2" snub and a 4" revolver in 38 special both +p rated

I also have a new LCP and old Colt Mustang (my beauty) in 380.

My wife and I have carried the snub but now with the LCP it is so small, light and easy to carry I would like to have some confidence in it.

The 4" S&W revolver is my night stand gun.

I have on hand to test with in 380- MagTech FMJRN, Speer Gold Dot JHP and WWB-FMJFN. I want to test all 3 out of the Colt and the Gold Dots also out of the LCP. I want to see for myself the penetration and expansion.

For the Taurus 85 snub I have the Buffalo Bore standard velocity 158g LSWCHP and Federal American Eagle 158g lead RN, wish I had a box of Buffalo Bores hard cast WC also but I'll have to pass on that right now.

For the 4" S&W I have the Buffalo Bore 158g LSWCHP+P and Federal 129g Hydra Shok+P

I'm going to follow the procedure for soaking the newspaper for 36 hours as per the instructions on the site I listed before and see how it goes in a couple of days. I'll post the results and pics. I live in the boondocks so I don't have to haul things to a range, that will help. Really want to see what the Buffalo Bores will do.

I know no home made testing is perfect, but if everything is shot into the same wet-pak media at least I will be able to make a relative comparision.

Slim
 
First off, thanks for doing the test...we need more of those, a double thanks for posting here...for those that really want to dig into the is the FBI study is online some where, and also head over to Box of Truth...they have some fun with backyard ammo testing as well..

Now I sitting down to 'the decent 2' and yep, I am bringing a .45 for those bastards....
 
Jake, thanks for sharing your experiment and results.

I am sure folks will disagree, but given a choice between penetration and expansion, I will take penetration every time. Expansion is mostly a non-factor since the slightly enlarged wound channel is rarely important in stopping an attacker, but it can be a factor in reducing penetration, resulting in failure to reach vital organs.

There is a prevalent, and nonsensical, idea that a person hit by, say a FMJ 9mm Luger bullet will just ignore the slight discomfort, while a person hit by an even moderately expanding bullet will instantly be blown to smithereens and dissolve in a cloud of ragged flesh. Of course, makers of expanding bullets claim the latter; I can't imagine why.

Jim
Click to expand...

+1 Nice post.
 
Slim,

Thanks for posting. I've played around with "unsophisticated" penetration tests for years. I also have learned a lot from these experiments and consider them well worth the time and effort. Al least you got off the couch and went shooting. You are about two weeks ahead of me this month!!

What I found most enlightening was how much performance drops off in the smaller barrel lengths.. snub nose compared to 3" or 4" guns. Also the difference between the calibers... 38 vs 380. Made me a "big bore" guy years ago.

Keep good notes. As your experiments become more and more elaborate you will see trends that you will carry to the next level.

I know no home made testing is perfect, but if everything is shot into the same wet-pak media at least I will be able to make a relative comparision.

Slim
Click to expand...

And everyone here knows that as well. Some people have to learn the difference between blunt and rude. Good grief, it's not like you are publishing the results for a study!! Keep up the good fight!
 
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On Hold

The better half just told me when I was looking for old newspapers that she just sent them to the recycling center this week. Be a while now to save and scrounge some up. Our Podunk local paper is only about 10 pages.

Slim
 
The HP doesn't just create a slightly larger wound channel than the FMJ. The expansion of the HP allows its kinetic energy to be transferred more efficiently to the target, creating more stopping power. The FMJ will pass through the target without transferring a lot of its kinetic energy; this gives it better penetration but decreased ability to stop the target. Additionally, every bullet that enters a body produces cavitation, the shock wave it leaves behind when it enters the body. You usually will not see the damage done by cavitation from the outside, it is mostly soft tissue trauma. A expanding bullet will produce larger cavitations, producing more soft tissue damage than will an FMJ. FMJ are good when you have to shoot through barriers but in a SD load may over penetrate your target. If you shoot through the opposition but hit an innocent bystander on the other side, well that isn't very good. HP are designed to cause maximal damage to the target, not penetrate all the way through. And I doubt many people will be wandering around with bullet proof vests to stop HP rounds. But they each have their own purposes.
 
I did some expansion/penetration testing with wet newspaper many years ago. Slightly different slant. I put varying numbers of layers of denim ahead of the newspaper to se how much "clothing" the JHP rounds would penetrate and still expand.

My results:

9mm Win Silvertips plugged up and stopped expanding at 7 layers of denim.

.380acp 102gr. Golden Sabres stopped expanding at 5 layers of denim.

Penetration on the Silvertips was about 12". Golden Sabres about 9". The size of the "wound channel" on the .380acp was about 75% of the size of the 9mm.

FWIW.
 
Expansion is mostly a non-factor since the slightly enlarged wound channel is rarely important in stopping an attacker, but it can be a factor in reducing penetration, resulting in failure to reach vital organs.
Click to expand...

How deep do you think those vital organs are? Unless you have a sumo wrestler attacking you, the heart, lungs, aorta are less than three inches from the surface.

Another factor is that a hollowpoint makes a sort of cookie cutter wound, rather like the large meplat cast bullets that handgun hunters use on game. The animal runs a few yards and then drops because of rapid blood loss. Shoot an animal with conical fmj handgun bullet and the wound closes behind the track, limiting blood loss. The animal will still die (assuming it's lung shot), but it may go for a long way before that happens.
 
One thing I've learned with similar testing on my own is that dry phone books aren't even close to wet phone books when it comes to bullet penetration. I did a phone book test using about a dozen different loads once...I even lobbed a 12 gauge slug in there for good measure. I had strapped all the books together and then soaked them for a while in a tub of water...certainly long enough that I thought they were all wet. Turns out they center was still plenty dry, and penetration was low...only a few inches at most even for a 44 mag JSP. Digging around on the internet finds some articles that claim wet phone books are similar to ballistic gelatin within maybe 10-20% when it comes to bullet penetration. Based on my tests you can expect much less penetration in dry phone books, and I presume that holds for newspaper as well.

Anyway, not surprising that penetration is low in dry newspaper.
 
To much idle time

Just to stay awake today I loaded a box up with old Golf Digest magazines and had at it. I know, I know ---meaningless--- but I just could not help myself.

Sure was interesting though.

On the left from top to bottom shot with 38 special 4" Smith

1- 129g Hydra Shok+p---went through 7 magazines very little expansion, bullet stayed intact.

2- BB-LSWCHP+P---went through 8 magazines about half of bullet fragmented into very small particles.

On the left, Shot with 38 special Taurus 85 snub

3- BB-LSWCHP---5 1/2 mags about 1/3 of bullet fragmented into very small pieces

4- PMC- copper jacket soft point-- 3 mags. Totally fragmented into large pieces. I would call this one a piece of CRAP.

On the right from top to bottom shot with 380 Colt Mustang

1- WWB-FMJFN---4 mags very surprised to see the way the nose flattened out and expanded in the hard dense magazines compared to the other bullets. It would be a bone breaker - I would not want to be hit with one of these.

2- Gold Dot---5 Mags no expansion at all.

3- Mag Tech-FMJRN - 5 1/2 mags, no flattening of the nose like the WWB



P5230013.jpg


Wife wants to know why the lawn did not get mowed.
 
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