muzzle velocity for recoil

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keegan

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new to firearms, had a question on recoil. If everything else is equal, higher or lower muzzle velocity helps with less recoil?

As for the pistol, what features or what to look for on less recoil other than longer barrel size?
 
Lower bullet weight less recoil
Lower velocity less recoil
Heavier gun less recoil
Greater forward weight bias less muzzle rise
Lighter slide with appropriate spring less recoil
Compensated less recoil and muzzle rise
Porting less recoil and muzzle rise

I’m sure someone is more knowledgeable than I here but I think that’s all correct.
There are several factors that change recoil and “felt” recoil in different ways.
I would also mention that direction of recoil is probably at least as important as the level of recoil. A gun that pushes straight back into your hand due to geometry like bore axis will feel more controllable than one that has less actual recoil but greater muzzle rise. Think single action style revolvers vs semiauto.
 
Thank you. How about 115 grain vs 147 grain ? Heavier bullet means more recoil but velocity will be higher on the less weighted round.

Who has the advantage on less recoil ? I ask cause I personally struggle on trying to figure out which one has more recoil when I’m at the rainge.

How bout pistol recoil pressure ? The higher or lower number to help with recoil ?
 
Comparing the recoil of different bullet weights can be complicated, because it might depend on which truly produces more recoil force, and this varies from one manufacturer to another because their 147 grain bullets might be going different speeds - same for 115 grain bullets.

The different bullet weights also feel different. The lighter bullets tend to feel 'snappy', compared to heavier bullets. This is often attributed to the faster acceleration of light bullets to reach their faster speed.
 
Keegan said:
new to firearms, had a question on recoil. If everything else is equal, higher or lower muzzle velocity helps with less recoil?
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If everything else is equal, lower muzzle velocity, because lower muzzle velocity is the result of a less powerful "explosion." ("Explosion" is in quotes because I couldn't think of a better single word. Modern, smokeless gunpowder isn't an explosive, it's a propellant; it doesn't explode, it burns rapidly.)

As for the pistol, what features or what to look for on less recoil other than longer barrel size?
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More weight (mass absorbs energy).


Read this: http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/power-factor-recoil-bullet-weight-gives-edge/
 
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As for the pistol, what features or what to look for on less recoil other than longer barrel size?
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Find one that fits your hand like a glove.
Light polymer frames are amazing for soaking up recoil even though the math says they shouldn't.
Low bore axis is a big plus for reducing felt recoil.
Have you looked at a Glock 19 or 17?
How about a Walther PPQ M2?
The Beretta M9 is a soft shooter and very affordable. A very easy gun to learn with.
Glocks are great, but the odd triggers can take some time to master.
 
Thank you. How about 115 grain vs 147 grain ? Heavier bullet means more recoil but velocity will be higher on the less weighted round.
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If both bullets are driven to the same velocity, then yes, the heavier bullet will result in more recoil, but if the two bullets are loaded to the same "power" level, most people feel a "softer" recoil with the heavy bullet, and prefer that.

I tend to prefer snappy recoil in the interest of "getting it over with", rather than soft, which usually translates to slow.
 
It's easy to figure out the relative recoil:
The recoil force (is about) = 1/2 * mass of the bullet* muzzle velocity squared

Things that change that are weight of the rifle and a muzzle brake.

(for relative analysis, you can use the weight of the bullet instead of the mass, but technically the mass is the weight divided by gravity)
 
keegan said:
....As for the pistol, what features or what to look for on less recoil other than longer barrel size?
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Understand that recoil energy and felt (perceived) recoil are two different things. You seem to be asking here about felt recoil

Felt recoil is a subjective matter. Various factors can affect how recoil is perceived. Things like gun fit, the thickness and angle of the grip, and how the weight of the gun is distributed are some of the attributes of the gun which can influence how one perceives recoil. And how those attributes of the gun affect how the shooter perceives the recoil of the gun will be high personal to the shooter and can be affected by the shooter's unique physical attributes such as hand size, and hand and upper body strength.

So, for example, comparing two theoretical gun producing the same recoil energy, the one with the longer barrel might seem to recoil less because the added weight towards the muzzle because of the longer barrel can reduce muzzle rise, and the longer barrel reduces muzzle flash. But the only way to really know how they compare to you is for you to actually shoot them.

Recoil energy on the other hand is a precise, physical quantity that is a function of the weight (mass) of the bullet, the weight (mass) of the powder charge, the muzzle velocity of the bullet, the muzzle velocity of the powder gases, and the weight (mass) of the gun. If you have those quantities for a given load in a given gun, you can calculate the amount of recoil energy produced when that load is fired in that gun. And a heavy bullet will produce more recoil energy than a lighter bullet fired from the same gun at a comparable velocity. Note that --

  • Recoil energy is directly proportional to the mass of the ejecta, i. e., recoil energy increases as the mass of the ejecta increase. The mass of the ejecta is made up of --

    • The mass of the bullet; and

    • The mass of the gases produced by the burning powder (which is directly proportional to the mass of the powder charge).

  • Recoil energy is directly proportional to the velocity of the ejecta, i. e., recoil energy increases as the mass of the ejecta increase. The velocity of the ejecta includes --

    • The velocity of the bullet; and

    • The velocity of the burning powder gases.

  • Recoil energy is inversely proportional to the mass of the gun, i. e., as the mass of the gun increases, recoil energy decreases.

If you're interested, you can calculate the recoil energy of a given load using the following formula1:

WG = Weight of gun in pounds
WB = Weight of bullet in grains
WP = Weight of powder charge in grains
VB = Muzzle velocity of bullet in f/s
I = Interim number (Recoil Impulse in lb/sec)
VG = Recoil velocity of gun (f/s)
EG = Recoil energy of gun (ft lb)

I = [(WB * VB) + (WP * 4000)] / 225218

VG = 32.2 * (I / WG)

EG = (WG * VG * VG) / 64.4

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1. This formula is quite similar to a formula for free recoil set out at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_recoil, although I think that the formula from Wikipedia may be a little more precise based on what I've read in Hatcher's Notebook. The formula I've reproduced above, is from the Q&As at http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscella.htm (specifically the question about why some guns of the same caliber kick harder than others). John Schaefer (FrFrog) notes that, "..."4000" is the nominal velocity of the powder gases at the muzzle for commercial smokeless powder and the observed range is between 3700 and 4300 f/s. It is sometimes stated as 4700 in some sources but this is based on observations of artillery, not small arms...." The Wikipedia formula would use the actual powder gas velocity, which may not be readily available.
 
thank you all for your information and help. The 2 pistols that i only own don't give me any recoil issues at all, 9mm and 45ACP 1911's but was curious on how this recoil business works.

I think i got it, what i should look for is high grain with the lowest velocity vs low grain with a very high velocity which will end up with a more snap to it.

I mean there are other factors as well when looking at ammo like depth and expansion but as far as recoil goes its the weight and muzzle velocity.

When i took my 45 to the range, i liked the recoil but didn't really feel much recoil on a 230 grain vs 200 or 185.

Thank you all for your comments, very much appreciate it.
 
keegan said:
thank you all for your information and help. The 2 pistols that i only own don't give me any recoil issues at all, 9mm and 45ACP 1911's but was curious on how this recoil business works.

I think i got it, what i should look for is high grain with the lowest velocity vs low grain with a very high velocity which will end up with a more snap to it.

I mean there are other factors as well when looking at ammo like depth and expansion but as far as recoil goes its the weight and muzzle velocity.

When i took my 45 to the range, i liked the recoil but didn't really feel much recoil on a 230 grain vs 200 or 185.

Thank you all for your comments, very much appreciate it.
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To echo some of what Frank said above, felt recoil is fairly subjective. I primarily shoot 9mm. I shoot mostly 124 gr ammo. However, because of the velocity it is snappier than a lot of the 115 gr cheap ammo out there. At the same time I find 147 gr to be even snappier still. Velocity and mass don't always increase or decrease together, in fact in many cases they go opposite. In that case determining which will be snappier isn't always easy ahead of time.

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Yep, lighter bullets go faster generally so depending upon ammo type velocity likely increased. The 1911 is a heavy antique so you will get less recoil than a lighter gun in with the same ammo.
 
I think i got it, what i should look for is high grain with the lowest velocity vs low grain with a very high velocity which will end up with a more snap to it.
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What's your goal?

I shoot 1911s. Due to some medical issues I haven't competed for several years, but I'm thinking about giving it another try this year. When I was in competition, I hadn't gotten into reloading yet so I was shooting factory Winchester USA 230-grain ammo in .45 Auto. And I was getting run over by the guys shooting 9mms, and one guy in particular who handloaded powder-puff .38 Supers. Compared to my standard power ammo, they all had zero muzzle flip.

So I decided to give myself as much help as I could if I was going to try again. I can't afford to buy a new gun just to try competing, so the goal was to find a load recipe that would allow me to use my .45 but have less muzzle flip. I had already decided to try using Berry's 185-grain bullet before I came across that article from Shooting Times, but that confirmed that I was on the right path.

By a small miracle, the article featured the same bullets and the same powder that I use. The competitions at my local range are "IDPA-like," not formal, sanctioned matches. It's an indoor range, so most matches have only one stage that we run through three times. There's no rule on power factor, but I may also try a couple of sanctioned matches this year, so I wanted something that would be legal. And that load with the Berry's 185-grain bullet and 5.3 grains of Winchester 231 is perfect. It's accurate and, compared to standard power commercial ammo, it's like shooting a .22.

My point (before I forget): depending on what you hope to accomplish, heavy bullet/low velocity may not the the best for reducing recoil. You can reduce it even more by going with a light bullet and low velocity. You have put forth a binary choice: heavy/slow vs. light/fast. It's not a binary situation -- you have virtually infinite options.
 
My experience has been the larger pistol, with the larger grip, shooting standard ammo
gives the most comfortable recoil.

I have had good luck with the Beretta 92A1(also the FS), Hogue grips, and S&B 115 grain
FMJ ammo.
 
I'm not sure what you are getting at, but I'll offer this: Forget formulas, physics, and everything else when shooting except correct sight picture and trigger squeeze.

CONCENTRATE on these basics, no matter what gun you are shooting. Concentrate on putting your bullet precisely where you want it to hit. All other aspects will fall into place. Learn basics, practice often.

Bob Wright
 
Higher or lower muzzle velocity is irrelevant as the recoil has already started by the time there is MV.
"...what to look for on less recoil..." Weight and mass of the firearm. However, you'll find when you actually shoot something that recoil isn't an issue with most cartridges. Assuming the firearm fits your hand correctly, recoil in a hand gun doesn't hurt.
What you need to do is go get some training and try a bunch of firearms. However, the physics of it is Newtonian. Equal and opposite reactions. Said reactions are tamed/controlled by the weight of the firearm, its springs and how well it fits your hand. Still nothing to worry about. A .45 ACP 1911A1 is a very comfortable pistol to shoot. So is its brother in 9mm.
"...power factor..." That's a silly shooting game invented term that pretty much means nothing. Except to the game. It has nothing whatever to do with reality.
 
IMO a quick *close* way to determine which load has the most recoil, multiply velocity in feet per second by bullet weight in grains. This is assuming out of the same gun. The one thing this won't account for is muzzle flip which I feel is worse with heavier bullets because of the slower velocity and thus a longer time in the barrel. Heavier bullets also tend to shoot to a higher point of impact because of the time in barrel.
 
for the users asking what is my intent and what i am looking for? Just trying to understand which areas effect recoil.

As for round itself, Muzzle Velocity (fps) vs Muzzle Energy (ft lbs) ? i guess the higher number will have more of a kick or snap correct? Here is the part i am confused.

most of the time a lighter round for instance 115 grain on 9mm would have a higher veolocity than lets say a 147 grain but i have seen where that same round doesn't have a higher muzzle energy than a 147 grain. Isn't usuall the higher velocity would have the higher energy?

which section out of these two ( muzzle velocity or muzzle energy )would have more recoil or less recoil. I guess what im trying to say which feature out of these two determine recoil?
 
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