Mushroom cloud over North Korea
- Thread starter Faithless
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Destructo6
New member
If it were a nuclear blast, we would probably know about it. Air samples and such from China/Russia/Japan probably would have indicated such and it would be public by now.
Powell and Rice have both said it was non-nuclear.
Powell and Rice have both said it was non-nuclear.
Double Naught Spy
New member
First of all, a mushroom cloud is diagnostic of nothing. I am sure the intent here is to suggest that maybe they are testing nukes, but mushroom clouds are not diagnostic of nukes. All sorts of explosions produce mushroom clouds.
30 years ago, train tankers full of flammables went up in a derailment in NE Dallas. The first explosion produced a mushroom cloud that was well illuminated by the fires below from other spilled cars. An hour later, the second car went up and produced a larger version. In short, the mushroom cloud is the product of a explosion, sometime a very large one, where the center of the stalk rises a little faster that the expanding outer edges (due to heat) and so you get the characteristic mushroom appearance of smoke.
30 years ago, train tankers full of flammables went up in a derailment in NE Dallas. The first explosion produced a mushroom cloud that was well illuminated by the fires below from other spilled cars. An hour later, the second car went up and produced a larger version. In short, the mushroom cloud is the product of a explosion, sometime a very large one, where the center of the stalk rises a little faster that the expanding outer edges (due to heat) and so you get the characteristic mushroom appearance of smoke.
Large explosions cause mushroom clouds, as Double Naught Spy said, regardless of source.
There would be plenty of indications that it was nuclear. Certainly China would not take kindly to it.
mete, most of the people of North Korea have done nothing. It is only the government I have issue with. In fact, the North Korea government will not even permit families split by the border to communicate. Families were split apart because of the imposition of this border. To me, this is one of the worse crimes of the North Korean government.
Certainly the people of North Korea have suffered more because of their government that you ever have.
Wishing the whole of the country gone is like me wishing your family destroyed because I don't like your ethnicity.
There would be plenty of indications that it was nuclear. Certainly China would not take kindly to it.
mete, most of the people of North Korea have done nothing. It is only the government I have issue with. In fact, the North Korea government will not even permit families split by the border to communicate. Families were split apart because of the imposition of this border. To me, this is one of the worse crimes of the North Korean government.
Certainly the people of North Korea have suffered more because of their government that you ever have.
Wishing the whole of the country gone is like me wishing your family destroyed because I don't like your ethnicity.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Ah, but the two parts of Germany were never actually at war with one another.
Sure, it may take time. Given that sort of conditional reasoning, it could take time before anything happens. The only way such prognostication will be borne out will be by waiting that amount of "some time" to see if it happens.
Basically, the conditional statement is non-falsifiable because it is open ended with an overly generalized conditional value.
Sure, it may take time. Given that sort of conditional reasoning, it could take time before anything happens. The only way such prognostication will be borne out will be by waiting that amount of "some time" to see if it happens.
Basically, the conditional statement is non-falsifiable because it is open ended with an overly generalized conditional value.
Geoff Timm
New member
One of the designs for a nuclear device, involves using a spherical explosive charge, precisely timed to create the conditions for Fission.
This might have been such a test.
Geoff
Who notes deploying nuclear weapons annoys everyone down wind.
This might have been such a test.
Geoff
Who notes deploying nuclear weapons annoys everyone down wind.
Yes, you'll know if it NoKo figures out nukes. They'll tell everyone who will listen. It's not going to be a secret.
And if you don't want to monitor press announcements out of North Korea, just watch the New York Times editorial pages. The week that NoKo detonates a nuclear bomb, they'll print at least one editorial that pays lip service to the effect that it's bad that a Communist dictatorship has nukes, but at the same time will betray genuine satisfaction that there will now be more "balance" in the world and the U.S. will be "forced to take a less unilateral approach to geopolitical problems."
And if you don't want to monitor press announcements out of North Korea, just watch the New York Times editorial pages. The week that NoKo detonates a nuclear bomb, they'll print at least one editorial that pays lip service to the effect that it's bad that a Communist dictatorship has nukes, but at the same time will betray genuine satisfaction that there will now be more "balance" in the world and the U.S. will be "forced to take a less unilateral approach to geopolitical problems."
Double Naught Spy
New member
The explosion may or may not have been some sort of accident. It very well could be just another form of conventional explosives testing. If not actual weapons testing, it may be some for of bunker testing if NoKo is figuring on entering the nuclear age and performing tests. If they are doing tests, then they will want monitoring bunkers just as the US did in the 40s-70s. A conventional blast may have been performed to test the mechanical percussive effects of such power on various structures. Similarly, structural testing could have been involved with the idea that it isn't for their own testing, but for withstanding possible foreign attacks. The various Gulf War actions showed just how unprotected key centers can be even though they seemed safe or in hardened bunkers. Such key centers including com centers, military control centers, airfields, etc.
There are a variety of reasons for larger scale conventional explosives testing. The US and some other countries may not engage in them so much as we used to do on a large scale as we have already done quite a bit in the past. NoKo was involved in civil unrest, war, and then post war issues while the US was doing decades of such work.
Had the explosion been nuclear, it would have showed up in atmospheric samples all over the world by now and would be no secret.
There are a variety of reasons for larger scale conventional explosives testing. The US and some other countries may not engage in them so much as we used to do on a large scale as we have already done quite a bit in the past. NoKo was involved in civil unrest, war, and then post war issues while the US was doing decades of such work.
Had the explosion been nuclear, it would have showed up in atmospheric samples all over the world by now and would be no secret.
You can test this without using fissionable material, if you want to hide it from the world. You also don't need extremely precise timing. You just need to have "critical mass" of the fissionable material mounded up together.
It certainly was no such test. Uncontrolled fission reactions have an associated electro-magnetic wave that is impossible to hide.
Destructo6
New member
I heard that N. Korea is claiming that the blast was the demolition of a mountain(?) for the purpose of a damn project. They even invited some westerners to have a look-see.
Odd, I always thought that grading for projects like that were done bit by bit for accuracy's sake, rather than all at once.
Odd, I always thought that grading for projects like that were done bit by bit for accuracy's sake, rather than all at once.
LoneStranger
New member
The question I would have to ask in regards to detection of a nuclear event, is it possible to detect a fusion event if you have not used a fission device to create it?
My understanding of Hydrogen Bombs is that a fission bomb is used to initiate the fusion event that becomes even bigger. So, if no fission device therefore no fission products to be detected.
Can products of a fusion event only be detected?
My understanding of Hydrogen Bombs is that a fission bomb is used to initiate the fusion event that becomes even bigger. So, if no fission device therefore no fission products to be detected.
Can products of a fusion event only be detected?
Cryonce,
LoneStranger,
Are you suggesting that N. Korea has figured out how to start a fusion chain reaction without fission? That's certainly giving them alot of credit.
Whatever the real source of the explosion, our government knew what it was minutes after the blast. A spectral analysis of the explosion would show how hot it was (nuclear or not) and what type of chemicals were involved in producing the explosion.
Anything radioactive would have been detected by the same gear on the S. Korean side that tell us exactly what type of breeder reactor products they're producing. Seismographs tell us exactly how big the explosion is.
There's no hiding the nature of this kind of thing.
Actually, you do. Otherwise the fissionable material isn't crushed together in a uniform and symetrical way, and will not become critical.
LoneStranger,
Are you suggesting that N. Korea has figured out how to start a fusion chain reaction without fission? That's certainly giving them alot of credit.
Whatever the real source of the explosion, our government knew what it was minutes after the blast. A spectral analysis of the explosion would show how hot it was (nuclear or not) and what type of chemicals were involved in producing the explosion.
Anything radioactive would have been detected by the same gear on the S. Korean side that tell us exactly what type of breeder reactor products they're producing. Seismographs tell us exactly how big the explosion is.
There's no hiding the nature of this kind of thing.