Mousin-Nagant vs 1886 Lebel

T

TruthTellers

New member
I've always had an open mind when it came to buying an old military bolt action rifle and the Mousin had always been at the top of that list because of availability and low price.

Mousin's aren't as cheap as they use to be thanks to demand for them. So, the Lebel rifle of 1886 is another one that's caught my eye. I really like the tube magazine because you don't see bolt guns with tube magazines often.

I know the ammunition is hard to come by, but reloading helps mitigate the cost of the 8mm Lebel.

Pound for pound, which rifle do you think is better? Which would you rather own?
 
The Lebel has always reminded me of the lines of a Kentucky muzzle loader. I have no idea how strong the action is or anything much else. The two piece stock is not something I gravitate toward.
 
You buy them for the history-I have both. The Lebel-first issued smokeless powder military rifle. The M-N-first generation smokeless powder military rifle with a very long service life. The 7.62x 54R is easier to find. Biggest caution with the Lebel is that tubular magazine.
 
The Lebel was, in my opinion, quite underrated. The cartridge was similar to most straight-case military cartridges of the day.

It's a queer-looking rifle by modern standards, but the French always marched to the beat of a different kettle of fish...
 
I have a 1917 model with the 3 shot clips. I reload and the brass (I think its PRVI) and it has a ring treepanned in the base between the primer and rim. I don't know if all brass produced has this, but you would need it for a tube load rifle. It was put there to stop recoil detonation.
 
TRX said:
The Lebel was, in my opinion, quite underrated. The cartridge was similar to most straight-case military cartridges of the day.
Click to expand...

Quite the opposite actually, The 1886 Lebel made every existing military rifle instantly obsolete, and the cartridge was the first of it's kind, a bottleneck smokeless cartridge. Later, all other militaries copied them.

Gunplummer said:
I have a 1917 model with the 3 shot clips. I reload and the brass (I think its PRVI) and it has a ring treepanned in the base between the primer and rim. I don't know if all brass produced has this, but you would need it for a tube load rifle. It was put there to stop recoil detonation.
Click to expand...
That would be a Berthier. The other thing about the Lebel and the tube magazine is that you can't use pointed spitzer bullets, for the same reason you can't in a Winchester 94. The bullet sits against the primer of the round next in line. A pointed bullet would essentially be a firing pin.
 
Pay attention. There is a ring on the back of the cartridge case between the primer and outer rim. The spitzer bullet nose of the cartridge behind it sits in that ring which keeps it away from the primer. I am just not sure if all the newly manufactured cases have the ring. The cases I bought do.
 
This is getting into reloading territory here, so I apologize, but does anyone know the bullet diameter of the Lebel cartridge? I'm reading stuff saying it's .323" and other stuff says .327"

If it's .323, then Hornady makes a .323 diameter SST bullet with a polymer tip that would eliminate any danger with use in the Lebel tube magazine.
 
The only thing I remember about a Lebel. I happen to come across 2 boxs of cartridges for our neighbors rifle when visiting family in Chicago. Our neighbor he originally bought his Lebel rifle thru a magazine advertisement which promoted said rifle being sold with a free box of cartridges at the time of its purchase >so I was told. (Might have been bought from Kline's in Chicago?)

As I recall some 50 years later that 8MM Lebel cartridge brass was sizable, at least the size of a 33 Winchesters. Kind of unusual looking too. Never seen the neighbors rifle being fired but occasionally heard it fired 1/2 mile away. By comparison: the Nagant would be dwarfed by the much larger Lebel cartridge.
 
The 8mm Lebel is pretty much a neckdown of the 11mm Gras.

The Balle D, solid bronze boattail spitzer, was the most advanced bullet of its day and for a good while after. Maybe still, have you looked at some of the "modern" unleaded bullets? (Early 8mm Lebel had the Balle M RNFP, but it was still one of the earliest smokeless repeaters.)

The D cartridge has a groove around the primer pocket to trap the nose of the spitzer bullet under it and keep it off the primer. It also has a double primer cup with a small opening in the very center of the outer layer for the firing pin to hit. All that, plus the funny shape that tilts the bullet to the side of the tube, makes it reasonably safe to load pointed bullets in the tubular magazine.
 
I'd buy a Lebel as a decoration.

I'd buy a M-N as a shooter.


Lebels are a pain to source ammunition or brass for, and are a pain to reload. And replacement parts can be difficult to obtain.

Mosins.... No problems with ammunition or reloading. Replacement parts are so common that I think I could get a Mosin-Nagant cartridge interrupter and replacement bolt at the corner gas station.
 
"Pound for pound, which rifle do you think is better? Which would you rather own?"

Since you asked for an "opinion", I'd say NEITHER. The Lebel was obsolete by the end of the 19th century and the MN by the end of WW1. Either is a dead end project IMHO. Spend the extra $$ to get a Mauser or Springfield.
 
Unlike the Lebel rifles themselves and their 8mm Lebel ammo, "Mousins" and their ammunition are actually attainable if you actually intend to shoot the damn thing without a ton of hassle.
 
Unlike the Lebel rifles themselves and their 8mm Lebel ammo, "Mousins" and their ammunition are actually attainable if you actually intend to shoot the damn thing without a ton of hassle.
Click to expand...
Actually, after seeing that I could get a Savage Model 11 Scout with 10 rd detachable magazine, iron sights, and picatinny rail and in .308 Win for $580, I have decided that this is going to be a far superior bolt gun.

Even with steel case .308, the Savage is probably a lot more accurate.
 
"...other stuff says .327"..." Prvi ammo uses a .327" spitzer. So did French military ammo after 1901. Was a 232 grain jacketed RN before that.
https://gunsmagazine.com/web-blast-the-french-mle-1886-lebel/
The tube held the ammo at an downward angle as well as the primers being counter sunk.
http://modernfirearms.net/rifle/repeating-rifle/fr/lebel-e.html
http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=274
Slug your barrel, but I suspect you'll find it's .327".
Graf's lists 175 grain PCI ammo at $32.99 per 20. Shows both ammo and brass from Prvi as out of stock.
Anyway, if you find a Lebel in decent condition, buy the thing just so you can say you have one when watching 'The Big Red One', 'Beau Geste', et al, on TV.
 
I would take the mosin. Ammo is more available, and if you find a good one (prewar with hex receivers are usually better) then get it.

If you could find a Swiss K31, then, well, that would be amazing. Those are very good rifles to own.

As for the Mosin vs Lebel, both bolts turn 90 degrees to open, the sights are (kind of) similar, and the power of the cartridges are similar, too. Whatever you feel comfortable with is what you should get.
 
Actually, after seeing that I could get a Savage Model 11 Scout with 10 rd detachable magazine, iron sights, and picatinny rail and in .308 Win for $580, I have decided that this is going to be a far superior bolt gun. Even with steel case .308, the Savage is probably a lot more accurate.
Click to expand...

Agree.

As collectibles, Sunday afternoon fun-toys at the range, or your favorite wierdo wall-hangers that work well as conversation starters over the fireplace, both the Lebel and Mosin will serve fine in those roles.

Beyond those roles, ... well, you've only got about a million other better choices. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top