Mouse Guns - A Controversial Proposal (So Get Controversial)

M

Mike H

New member
Research by Dr. Gary Kleck (Univ. of Florida)shows that the vast majority of defensive gun uses don't even involve the firing of a shot; an attack is often deterred simply by the presence of a firearm. What's most important, then, is not necessarily having a big gun, or even a big caliber gun, but (observing the First Rule of Gunfighting) simply having a gun, period.

My Mother In Laws Rossi .38 snubbie is getting a little tired, and whilst I am always wary of providing a potential adversary with improved weaponry ;) I have been giving some thought on which way to guide her. She shoots only occasionally and consistent with a lot of lady shooters, she wants it small, simple and without fire breathing dragon antics (bye, bye .357 Sig). I took a look at the Glock 19 (a little too much) but then noticed the new Keltec P-32, what a great little gun, I liked everything about it, and with the store owners permission (and letting his assistants know too) I tried the gun for size in my pants pocket, it was perfect.

To cut a long story short, the aforementioned research coupled with this ideally sized piece and its admittedly weak but still surprisingly effective round has made me rethink the ethos of walking around wearing a wrist cannon. I welcome comments, even from Jeff Cooper fans (must be able to hit a bouncing ping pong ball if you carry a mouse gun etc etc) for whom anything less than .45 can't be measured. I think it makes a LOT of sense.

Mike H
 
I've got no arguement with your premise, Mike. As you pointed out, the first rule is to have a gun, and coupled with a high level of situational awareness, the odds are in your favor. Any gun is better than no gun, and a hit with .32 is better than a miss with a megablaster .505 magnum express transmorgafier. The key is practice and more practice with whatever you carry. Cooper is right up to a point, you've gotta be able to hit.

My wife has a girlfriend who was almost mugged in the parkeing garage at a local mall last Xmas. She had a Beretta .25 that she pulled, pointed at him, COM, and told him to back off when he was about 10 yds away. He sorta laughed at her until she dropped her point of aim to his 'nads, at which point he decided he had other places to be. M2
 
I would just as soon carry my Mustang Pocketlite (.380) as anything! I practice alot with it. I wouldn't want to be on the other end of it, or any other gun... Which would YOU rather be shot with... A .25 auto, or a 9mm?? If you can answer this question YOU are a braver man than I !!!
CJB
 
P32 is a poor choice for someone who doesn't train: the first time I fired it, I mostly hit the floor! If your MIL shoots occasionally, P32 is a wonderful gift. If not, a .38 Rossi is likely a better, if heavier, choice.
 
Why not consider just getting her the Kel-Tec P11 in 9mm? The 9mm packs more punch, and the P-11 is pretty much very easy to conceal, yet has 11 rounds of a better round.
Also, 9mm practice ammo can be cheaper if money is a factor.
There is also a wider choice of defensive ammo in 9mm.
Just my opinion.

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"what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?"
 
I too have gone through the threat analysis you are doing. And perhaps most of the time just the appearance of the firearm is sufficient to send the perps running. But it will be just my luck to be the one case where appearances are not enough.

For me it comes down to Murphy's Law: everything will go to crap for me when the chips are down. It will be just my luck to meet not one, but SEVERAL thugs, who are BARREL CHESTED thicker than the starting linesmen for the Redskins, with arms like tree trunks, and willfully intent on squishing me into a grape. These gents are not intimidated by the mouse gun and they clean my clock even with the little .25 and .32 bullets stuck in their forearms or flattened on their ribcages. It is for just this sort of scenario that I find my Colt CCO and new Glock 30 to be most reassuring.

So I got rid of the mouseguns.

When I was in the Army I was very happy to be packing a 120mm tank cannon. Now I have the CCW equivalent. :)
 
Not exactly a mouse gun, but to me the Makarov makes for a mighty fine carry tool.

I think Dr Kleck teaches at Florida State University, doesn't he?

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So many pistols, so little money.

[This message has been edited by Tecolote (edited March 27, 2000).]
 
I feel very well armed with my Bersa Series 95. I tried the Kel Tec P11's and didn't like the looooooong trigger pull. Plus it didn't feel quite right in my hand. When I picked up the Bersa it was a perfect fit. I have done expansion testig with Winchesters SXT load and was quite impressed. Bullet expansion ran from .54 to .60 or .62, don't have the numbers right here with me. Penetration in soaked and I mean soaked newspaper ran 8". Keep in mind soaked newsprint tends to underestimate the depth of penetration.
 
Confession: I often carry a NAA Mini-Mag in .22 WMR when nothing else is appropriate (work etc.) At first I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it, but the key to proficiency with mouse guns is practice. Now I can deliver headshots on an IPSC target consistently from 7 yards away, which is not too bad for a 6-ounce gun with no usable sights and a sub-2" barrel. The .22 LR feels puny even in that tiny gun, but the .22 WMR packs a wallop. It sounds like a .357 out of a gun that small. If I had a choice, I'd rather carry one of my Glocks all the time, but sometimes only the Mini will do. People don't relish the idea of getting shot, whether it is with a .22 LR or a .454 Casull, and if the 90% scare-away rule does not work in my favor, I can always dump a cylinder full of MaxiMag +V into the bad guy. Better than spitting or saying "please, don't hurt me". And because the Mini is so small, I can have my hand on the gun in my front pocket if I ever get approached by less-than-social characters (and I have no means of retreat).

I'd say that the mouse gun definitely has its place. However you feel about the effectiveness of small-caliber guns, it is pretty much undisputed that any gun is preferable to bare hands in any case. The Mini allows me to go armed where others would have to leave their wonder guns at home or in the car. That said, I will carry one of my Glocks if at all possible.
 
While I remain a big bore (.45 ACP) fan, I don't discount the lesser calibers. My cousin, who once worked as a clerk in the grocery store told me that when you're staring down a barrel of a .22, it looks like a cannon.

My own belief is that a person should carry the largest caliber (s)he can handle with proficiency. Anything too big and (s)he may lack confidence; this in turn can lead to hesistancy which could get them killed. As Kleck says, mere presence of a gun deters. I've a friend who was about to be mugged in Oakland, CA. While he was tactically unprepared (gun in zipper case in duffel bag he was carrying), mere sight of the tritium sights caused the three wrongdoers to retreat.

In the final anaylsis, it is better to be armed with a mousegun and raise the risk of harm to the wrongdoer than to shake an angry fist and curse at them while they have their way with you and your loved ones.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
my main concern is that if i have a choice i find myself making excuses. being a creature of comfort i will usually carry the more comfortable pistol. in the past this has seen me walking the streets and shops of our town with guns as small as a Freedom Arms mini .22. the day i woke up was when i had to dispatch a deer on the roadside that had been hit by a car. his pelvis had been crushed and he was suffering. i had a pocket .32 ACP with me and after asking everyone to stand aside i shot the deer (with Silvertips) once with no response, twice same story. i to emptied the clip. while i was going for my extra clip in my pocket, the deer stopped trying to crawl away. it layed there as i approached, shot it in the head killing it. minutes before he was failing around and a head shot had been difficult at best and possibly dangerous to me as he was throwing his front hooves around trying to crawl. compare this to an incident where i was walking on my farm. i was carrying a S&W 4006 in .40 S&W loaded with 165 grain Golden Sabers. i saw a fat doe in an alfalfa field less than 25 yards away. instead of stopping walking i drew my pistol and maintained a steady pace and when i was within 15 yards i leveled the pistol and fired two shoots at the deer's chest. she stumbled and ran aprox. 10 yards, fell and died. the recovered bullets were expanded to .60 caliber and were found under the skin on the far side of the deer's chest. perfect performance. i sold every mouse gun i had except the pocket .32. it is on the shelf just inside my gun safe. when i open the safe i see it, remember and pick up a real pistol. my current carry? K40 Kahr 165 grain Golden Sabers.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
I agree the .45 is the way go. Unfortunately, I am not prepared to make the concessions required to carrying it (partiuclarly, in the summer time--it has to be experienced to be appreciated) so more often than not, it's the .32 (S&W 632 and 85 grain Federal JHPs) in the pocket. Am I more comfortable (security wise) with the .45? Undoubtedly. Is it realistically required most of the time (based on my threat analysis)? No. Is gun in the pocket better than a gun in the safe. Yes. Seriously, under different circumstances, I would carry the .45 more, but right now it is not worth the considerable amount of extra trouble and discomfort. Life can be a series of trade-offs. (And if you're going to jam it the belly (or the ear) and pull the trigger, the chances are the person on the receiving end won't notice the difference--private citizen self defence shooting had better be extremely close range unless you can defend why you didn't retreat.)
 
I like my Sig P230. Consider saving one round for up close if they keep coming... we've seen the pictures of what muzzle blast can do. Also, just read a story about a woman stopping a BigBG with a single .380 shot to the chest. The guy just sat down and died.
 
sometimes i carry my old hi standard derringer in .22mag sometimes not say what you want. however one who practices with a .22 is far superior to one who does not with a .45
and as juliet posted they had better be close enough or you are out of options. and we can all agree on at least one aspect nobody wants to get shot whether it is a .25 or a .45
 
My favorite mousegun was a Beretta 21A in .22 lr. It was stolen about two years ago (fat lot of good it did them...I still have the magazines-Ha!). It was nice for when I didn't want to look like I had a gun (extreme hot weather, especially). Given the limitations of its sights and trigger, it was amazingly accurate (though I don't know if I could have hit that ping pong ball-*grin*). But it was rather finicky about ammo, preferring only one brand. I don't care if it is reliable with that brand, I don't want it if it won't go bang every time. If I do ever replace it, it will probably be with a Colt Pony .380-almost the same size and a better cartridge.
 
I have to agree with riddleofsteel. When I have a mouse gun around I get lazy and defer to it too often. When I get tired of dragging the CCO or the G30 around I will most likely defer to a Sig P232, that is as mousey as I like to get.
 
As far as discounting a mouse gun--one day during a traffic stop that went rodeo I wound up looking down the barrel of a pistol. I would have sworn it chambered a 25mm cannon round. While I was writing my report, I discounted terror and decided that it was probably a .40S&W.

Turns out it was a Walther TPH in .22Long Rifle.

Nobody is gonna look into the muzzle of your M.I.L.'s pistol and decide that it won't hurt them.

Is your M.I.L. capable of pulling the slide back on one of the pistols mentioned? If not, you may want to look into a Berreta .32 or .380 with the tip-up barrel. I haven't carried one personally, but I've heard good things about them.

LawDog
 
Carry the largest caliber weapon you can conceal. There is no reason with today's handgun designs to compromise below the 9mm round. Granted, while the first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun, should you need to use it, the need will be great. Great needs need great calibers. Just some ramblings...

Erik
 
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