Mormon massacre?
- Thread starter DasBoot
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It happened. You might also want to read about their aborted "uprising" during the War Between the States. The army was called in and it resulted in a number of arrests of Morman elders for bigomy. An interesting, forgotten episode in our county's westward expansion.
My bust. This happened before the War Between the States. 1857-58
Wikipedia is great.
My bust. This happened before the War Between the States. 1857-58
Wikipedia is great.
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No, they never opened fire on US troops, There were no US Troops involved in the Mountain Meadow Massarce. Just the settlers who were crossing Mormon land, Ute Indians and Mormans. The settlers were all murdered except the youngest childern. After Joseph Smith's men convinced the settlers to lay down their arms in exchange for safe conduct they were shot , men , women and older children.
Whatever else you want to lay against Joseph Smith, and I am no defender, the local residents who killed most of the wagon train as it was passing through southern Utah were not "Joseph Smith's men", he was long dead by then. 
It was an extremely dastardly deed, Brigham Young was the Mormon Church president at the time, he denied any responsibility in the matter, and sometime later another church notable, John D. Lee, was executed by a firing squad for allegedly leading the affair.
It was an extremely dastardly deed, Brigham Young was the Mormon Church president at the time, he denied any responsibility in the matter, and sometime later another church notable, John D. Lee, was executed by a firing squad for allegedly leading the affair.
Mountain Meadows Massacre
In those days there were no phones and the west was wild and wooly...
Brigham Young was very long way from the area. A few hundred miles.
Joseph Smith was shot and murdered in a jail cell by a "lynch-mob" in I believe Missouri... or possibly Illinois (Not sure) some years before the Mountain Meadows incident which took place in southern Utah...
Before the Mormons came to the Great Salt Lake, they had been attacked in their town of Nauvoo, Illinois by a mob of non-Mormons that burned their city to the ground...desecrated their Temple... raped their women and slaughtered their children... then they disposessed them of their lands and ran them out into the night in the dead of winter...
The Mormons moved west to Missouri and the same thing happened again in Independence... Then they went off to the Far West and settled in the Utah territories in a land no one else wanted and the famous Trapper Mountain man Jim Bridger said was worthless land in which no one could farm a living. He promised to pay $1000 for the first bushel of corn raised in the Salt Lake Valley.
The story gets a little foggy from here... Some locals had seen the wagon train and recognized the people in it as being those mobsters who had murdered their children and raped their women and stolen their belongings...
They wanted to attack them and get their revenge... If Brigham Young had known of this he would have stopped them but distance played a big roll in the reporting...
There is reason to believe that John D. Lee felt that he must capitulate and try to "control" the heated tempers of the Mormons under his leadership and that the alleged intention was to "capture" the murderers and try them...
Then things got out of control and the massacre began...
They didn't murder everyone as has been repeated often enough...
The witnesses in the wagon train were the reporters of the story...
There is no excuse for vengeance and no excuse for massacre of even your worst scumbag enemies... There was no cover up and the Mormons were the ones who executed John D. Lee.
Note: Back in Missouri, before the Mormons were run out of Independence, Governor Boggs of that sovereign State issued a public order to "exterminate the Mormons" This was done so the non-Mormons could murder and rape and plunder the lands and property of Mormon men, women and children with impunity...
One 9 year old whom the mobsters thought was dead, tells of seeing his 9 year old friend begging for his life... being shot in the head while the murderers laughed and said little nits grow up to be big Mormons.
Another witness was a mother who had been gang raped and beaten and left for dead who saw the enemies grab "infants by their ankles and dash their tiny heads against an anvil..."
If you must spit out your invective and incorrect judgements and outright bulloney... At least get it right...
The true history of the Mormons is kept in the shadows and I invite all reasonable men to look closely at the Mormons and see if you can actually believe the crap that is said about them... Even the famous author, Charles Dickens said the Mormons were well behaved, polite and of very good quality and that he could find no fault in them.
The last point... There was NO uprising... the US President, Buchanan was lied to when he was told that the Mormons had rebelled... and he was persuaded to send the Army to Utah to quell a rebellion that didn't exist...
The bigamy/polygamy thing was "necessary" because many, many Mormon women were widowed by the anti Mormon massacres and then more by the wintery treks across the Rocky Mountains and it was necessary in those times for all women, everywhere, to be escorted and supported by men. It was also necessary for someone to visit them and their orphaned children and help them do farm work etc that needed a man's strength and skills...
In those days all women were dependent on men or family, unless they were "women of property" and if no man or family would support them they were all but lost and relegated to the lowest forms of servitude...
The enemies of Mormonism saw polygamy as a cause to destroy the Mormons once and for all... they "lobbied" for bills that would outlaw polygamy and the so called rebellion was born from the FACT that good and caring men refused to throw away one or more of their life's companions and their children and abandon them to the buffetings of the "world"... they were not even alowed to visit them and see to their needs!!!
Like the Christians of early Rome, the southern blacks, and the Chinese laborers in the 1860's, and the Japanese Americans in 1941, and the Jews of Germany, Armenians in Turkey and Kurds in Iran... The Mormon's are more than a little familiar with adversity and persecution...
Walk a mile in their shoes...
And see if you can't find something nice to say...
and perhaps you could keep false reports to yourself.
In those days there were no phones and the west was wild and wooly...
Brigham Young was very long way from the area. A few hundred miles.
Joseph Smith was shot and murdered in a jail cell by a "lynch-mob" in I believe Missouri... or possibly Illinois (Not sure) some years before the Mountain Meadows incident which took place in southern Utah...
Before the Mormons came to the Great Salt Lake, they had been attacked in their town of Nauvoo, Illinois by a mob of non-Mormons that burned their city to the ground...desecrated their Temple... raped their women and slaughtered their children... then they disposessed them of their lands and ran them out into the night in the dead of winter...
The Mormons moved west to Missouri and the same thing happened again in Independence... Then they went off to the Far West and settled in the Utah territories in a land no one else wanted and the famous Trapper Mountain man Jim Bridger said was worthless land in which no one could farm a living. He promised to pay $1000 for the first bushel of corn raised in the Salt Lake Valley.
The people who were sent to settle the southern Utah area were lead by this man, he was not "notable" but he was a local leader something like a bishop in the Lutheran or Catholic church in rank...
The story gets a little foggy from here... Some locals had seen the wagon train and recognized the people in it as being those mobsters who had murdered their children and raped their women and stolen their belongings...
They wanted to attack them and get their revenge... If Brigham Young had known of this he would have stopped them but distance played a big roll in the reporting...
There is reason to believe that John D. Lee felt that he must capitulate and try to "control" the heated tempers of the Mormons under his leadership and that the alleged intention was to "capture" the murderers and try them...
Then things got out of control and the massacre began...
They didn't murder everyone as has been repeated often enough...
The witnesses in the wagon train were the reporters of the story...
There is no excuse for vengeance and no excuse for massacre of even your worst scumbag enemies... There was no cover up and the Mormons were the ones who executed John D. Lee.
Note: Back in Missouri, before the Mormons were run out of Independence, Governor Boggs of that sovereign State issued a public order to "exterminate the Mormons" This was done so the non-Mormons could murder and rape and plunder the lands and property of Mormon men, women and children with impunity...
One 9 year old whom the mobsters thought was dead, tells of seeing his 9 year old friend begging for his life... being shot in the head while the murderers laughed and said little nits grow up to be big Mormons.
Another witness was a mother who had been gang raped and beaten and left for dead who saw the enemies grab "infants by their ankles and dash their tiny heads against an anvil..."
If you must spit out your invective and incorrect judgements and outright bulloney... At least get it right...
The true history of the Mormons is kept in the shadows and I invite all reasonable men to look closely at the Mormons and see if you can actually believe the crap that is said about them... Even the famous author, Charles Dickens said the Mormons were well behaved, polite and of very good quality and that he could find no fault in them.
The last point... There was NO uprising... the US President, Buchanan was lied to when he was told that the Mormons had rebelled... and he was persuaded to send the Army to Utah to quell a rebellion that didn't exist...
The bigamy/polygamy thing was "necessary" because many, many Mormon women were widowed by the anti Mormon massacres and then more by the wintery treks across the Rocky Mountains and it was necessary in those times for all women, everywhere, to be escorted and supported by men. It was also necessary for someone to visit them and their orphaned children and help them do farm work etc that needed a man's strength and skills...
In those days all women were dependent on men or family, unless they were "women of property" and if no man or family would support them they were all but lost and relegated to the lowest forms of servitude...
The enemies of Mormonism saw polygamy as a cause to destroy the Mormons once and for all... they "lobbied" for bills that would outlaw polygamy and the so called rebellion was born from the FACT that good and caring men refused to throw away one or more of their life's companions and their children and abandon them to the buffetings of the "world"... they were not even alowed to visit them and see to their needs!!!
Like the Christians of early Rome, the southern blacks, and the Chinese laborers in the 1860's, and the Japanese Americans in 1941, and the Jews of Germany, Armenians in Turkey and Kurds in Iran... The Mormon's are more than a little familiar with adversity and persecution...
Walk a mile in their shoes...
And see if you can't find something nice to say...
and perhaps you could keep false reports to yourself.
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Pointer,
I will not get into an Internet war over this.
You are entirely welcome to hold your views of the matter, and to accept one or more of the church versions of the incident.
There are indications that Young was aware of what was going on, but later denied giving any instructions or encouragement to the locals down there. I did not say he ordered it, or was a party to it.
The persecution of the Mormons back east is well documented, less well publicized is the attitude and the interactions of the Mormons with their neighbors which, although it did not justify the persecution, certainly contributed to the atmosphere that created it.
I used the words "church notable" for Lee because he was a major name both in the area and in the church at the time. He was considered a leader in the area, both "civic" and "religious", because at the time & place there was really no difference.
Stories vary over the reason behind the animosity between the wagon train and the local residents, I've not heard the one about any members of the train being among the people who had persecuted the Mormons earlier, and doubt there were any, since the wagon train did not come from the same region where the majority of the persecution took place before the Mormons moved West.
The most common source of contention that I've seen listed was the attitude of the wagon train members which angered the settlers and resulted in their refusing to sell needed supplies to the train. That supposedly escalated with unfortunate comments on both sides.
I'm not aware of the massacre occuring as revenge against any specific "persecutors" from the Illinois or Missouri areas.
They did not murder all members, several children were taken into local homes in the Cedar City area, at least immediately.
There certainly was at least a limited cover-up initially, with blame being placed on the Indians, and while it's true that members of the church did comprise the firing squad which executed Lee for his role in the matter, he felt betrayed by Brigham Young, whom he had regarded as a father figure, and felt he was made a scapegoat to take all the punishment over it when the outrage and pressure began to increase.
For over a hundred years the church either discouraged discussion of the massacre, or downplayed its role in it.
When the first book on the Mountain Meadows Massacre was written in the early 1950s, its author, Juanita Brooks (my mother's English teacher in college in southern Utah), was nearly excommunicated from the church in which she was a devout member.
If you were referring to me, I spit out no invective, I promulgated no incorrect judgements, and nothing I said was "bulloney".
I note your acceptance of the time-honored LDS Church justification of polygamy- It was necessary because of all the spare women that needed to be taken care of, and reject it. If you objectively read more about early church leaders and their activities, you might see a different "truth". Polygamy was espoused as being absolutely essential to achieve the highest "kingdom" in heaven after death, but dropped officially at the end of the 19th Century under pressure from Congress, and to help ease the creation of Utah as a state. Polygamous "marriages" were still conducted in Mexico among people sent there by church authorities for that purpose, for some time afterward, but eventually dropped.
There was no official Mormon Uprising, but Young vigorously prepared for armed skirmishes with Johnson's Army as it was enroute, and also prepared to leave the Salt Lake Valley if necessary. Fortunately, an actual war was averted.
I have made no false reports, do some research before you start tossing tar & feathers yourself.
Moderators: This is not particularly gun-related, I was merely trying to address a couple of errors in previous posts, and since the subject is obviously still very sensitive here in Utah, I won't make any further posts on the matter.
There are enough books & other materials available on both the massacre and other aspects of the early church and its leaders that I don't need to address the subject any further. It was not my intention to start another massacre here.
I will not get into an Internet war over this.
You are entirely welcome to hold your views of the matter, and to accept one or more of the church versions of the incident.
There are indications that Young was aware of what was going on, but later denied giving any instructions or encouragement to the locals down there. I did not say he ordered it, or was a party to it.
The persecution of the Mormons back east is well documented, less well publicized is the attitude and the interactions of the Mormons with their neighbors which, although it did not justify the persecution, certainly contributed to the atmosphere that created it.
I used the words "church notable" for Lee because he was a major name both in the area and in the church at the time. He was considered a leader in the area, both "civic" and "religious", because at the time & place there was really no difference.
Stories vary over the reason behind the animosity between the wagon train and the local residents, I've not heard the one about any members of the train being among the people who had persecuted the Mormons earlier, and doubt there were any, since the wagon train did not come from the same region where the majority of the persecution took place before the Mormons moved West.
The most common source of contention that I've seen listed was the attitude of the wagon train members which angered the settlers and resulted in their refusing to sell needed supplies to the train. That supposedly escalated with unfortunate comments on both sides.
I'm not aware of the massacre occuring as revenge against any specific "persecutors" from the Illinois or Missouri areas.
They did not murder all members, several children were taken into local homes in the Cedar City area, at least immediately.
There certainly was at least a limited cover-up initially, with blame being placed on the Indians, and while it's true that members of the church did comprise the firing squad which executed Lee for his role in the matter, he felt betrayed by Brigham Young, whom he had regarded as a father figure, and felt he was made a scapegoat to take all the punishment over it when the outrage and pressure began to increase.
For over a hundred years the church either discouraged discussion of the massacre, or downplayed its role in it.
When the first book on the Mountain Meadows Massacre was written in the early 1950s, its author, Juanita Brooks (my mother's English teacher in college in southern Utah), was nearly excommunicated from the church in which she was a devout member.
If you were referring to me, I spit out no invective, I promulgated no incorrect judgements, and nothing I said was "bulloney".
I note your acceptance of the time-honored LDS Church justification of polygamy- It was necessary because of all the spare women that needed to be taken care of, and reject it. If you objectively read more about early church leaders and their activities, you might see a different "truth". Polygamy was espoused as being absolutely essential to achieve the highest "kingdom" in heaven after death, but dropped officially at the end of the 19th Century under pressure from Congress, and to help ease the creation of Utah as a state. Polygamous "marriages" were still conducted in Mexico among people sent there by church authorities for that purpose, for some time afterward, but eventually dropped.
There was no official Mormon Uprising, but Young vigorously prepared for armed skirmishes with Johnson's Army as it was enroute, and also prepared to leave the Salt Lake Valley if necessary. Fortunately, an actual war was averted.
I have made no false reports, do some research before you start tossing tar & feathers yourself.
Moderators: This is not particularly gun-related, I was merely trying to address a couple of errors in previous posts, and since the subject is obviously still very sensitive here in Utah, I won't make any further posts on the matter.
There are enough books & other materials available on both the massacre and other aspects of the early church and its leaders that I don't need to address the subject any further. It was not my intention to start another massacre here.
Jericho9mm
New member
There are a lot of interesting responses to this topic. I am a university student at Brigham Young University - Idaho, and i am a History major. One of the classes that I took was from a Professor Lawrence Coates, one of the most influential scholars on this topic, it was a class entirely about the Massacre. So for a whole semester we studied first hand accounts, second hand reports and memiors of the children that were left alive but recorded them later on in life. I even wrote an extensive paper about one aspect of the attack. So i have read the primary documents, newspaper accounts and even the court transcripts of J.D. Lee's trials. many of you have read the wikipedia version or the google version but until you go in and study what little there is to know you realize that nobody knew what was happening until it was too late. there are three major factors that contributed to it happening however:
1. J.D. Lee acted in what he thought was the best interest of his people, and as a militia leader was influenced by the fact that many of the people in the wagon train claimed to be the same persecutors who kicked them out of Missouri. Johnson's army was already rumored to be on the move towards salt lake so tensions were high.
2. The immagrant train also had conflicts with the local native american tribes who claimed that the members of the train poisened a water hole and killed many in a village. needless to say the Natives who were friendly with the Mormon settlers pressured and possibly manipulated the leaders of the militia to beleive that the immigrants posed a threat, and then to attack.
3. The higher ups in the Mormon church did not know about the attack, order it, or let it happen. santa clara, Utah is about a 5.5 hour drive from SLC today so back then word would have travelled much slower. and it is well documented that Brigham Young was not associated with the massacre becasue the week that it happened he was marrying another wife and setting up her home and had a small conference with one of the major Indian chiefs in the area.
so to sum up it should not have happened but between the pressure that the Mormon militia felt, the coaxing of the Indians who wanted revenge, and the taunting of the Immigrants all it took was for one man to make a bad call then hell would break loose. were others involved? deffinatly. was JD Lee a scapegoat? most likely. but how many other events like this occured on the frontier? many, such as john brown and Bloody Kansas. tragedies happen it is a fact of life and many come about because of misunderstandings so before you judge educate yourself before you misunderstand someone else.
1. J.D. Lee acted in what he thought was the best interest of his people, and as a militia leader was influenced by the fact that many of the people in the wagon train claimed to be the same persecutors who kicked them out of Missouri. Johnson's army was already rumored to be on the move towards salt lake so tensions were high.
2. The immagrant train also had conflicts with the local native american tribes who claimed that the members of the train poisened a water hole and killed many in a village. needless to say the Natives who were friendly with the Mormon settlers pressured and possibly manipulated the leaders of the militia to beleive that the immigrants posed a threat, and then to attack.
3. The higher ups in the Mormon church did not know about the attack, order it, or let it happen. santa clara, Utah is about a 5.5 hour drive from SLC today so back then word would have travelled much slower. and it is well documented that Brigham Young was not associated with the massacre becasue the week that it happened he was marrying another wife and setting up her home and had a small conference with one of the major Indian chiefs in the area.
so to sum up it should not have happened but between the pressure that the Mormon militia felt, the coaxing of the Indians who wanted revenge, and the taunting of the Immigrants all it took was for one man to make a bad call then hell would break loose. were others involved? deffinatly. was JD Lee a scapegoat? most likely. but how many other events like this occured on the frontier? many, such as john brown and Bloody Kansas. tragedies happen it is a fact of life and many come about because of misunderstandings so before you judge educate yourself before you misunderstand someone else.
DunedinDragon
New member
I agree with Jericho with one exception:
Tragedies like this and the "bloody kansas" incident happen not because of misunderstanding, but more typically because of people in a position of authority or regard whose arrogance and disregard for other's beliefs lead them to morally reprehensible actions. It's not an indictment that means the entire system is broken.
If that were the case one could reasonably argue that that our entire form of government checks and balances is invalid based on Andrew Jackson ignoring the ruling of the Supreme Court regarding the property rights of the Indians, and taking them on a forced march on the "trail of tears" resulting in hundreds of deaths with no reprocussions for him as President. As he said, "if the court thinks what I'm doing is illegal, let THEM enforce it."
This incident was about unreasonable and unethical people, not about the system or beliefs they came from.
Tragedies like this and the "bloody kansas" incident happen not because of misunderstanding, but more typically because of people in a position of authority or regard whose arrogance and disregard for other's beliefs lead them to morally reprehensible actions. It's not an indictment that means the entire system is broken.
If that were the case one could reasonably argue that that our entire form of government checks and balances is invalid based on Andrew Jackson ignoring the ruling of the Supreme Court regarding the property rights of the Indians, and taking them on a forced march on the "trail of tears" resulting in hundreds of deaths with no reprocussions for him as President. As he said, "if the court thinks what I'm doing is illegal, let THEM enforce it."
This incident was about unreasonable and unethical people, not about the system or beliefs they came from.
Pointer,
That info was helpful.
I never knew the Mormons went through that.
As for:
In MY world, there's plenty of room for both!
How does self defence fit in with that philosophy?
The level of my response is dictated by the level of the offense.
Off topic......sorry!
I'm still a bit confused......
During that time, there were settlers from all over the world practicing different religions.
Why were Mormons supposedly mistreated by members of the wagon train in the first place?
Were the settlers of one religion?
If so, what was it?
That info was helpful.
I never knew the Mormons went through that.
As for:
If you truly believe that, you're a better person than I.
In MY world, there's plenty of room for both!
How does self defence fit in with that philosophy?
The level of my response is dictated by the level of the offense.
Off topic......sorry!
I'm still a bit confused......
During that time, there were settlers from all over the world practicing different religions.
Why were Mormons supposedly mistreated by members of the wagon train in the first place?
Were the settlers of one religion?
If so, what was it?
Dpris
It was reported to Brigham Young and by the time it got to and from... the "massacre" was over and done.
In fact, you said...
For the record the specifics of what you say are pretty much accurate... the way you say it "shades" the truth and completely dispenses with understanding and fairness...
If the tar and feathers fit...
You appear to wear it with pride.
DasBoot
I have blood on my hands... and violence in my heart.
They would each preach that theirs was the true way to believe and that everyone else would burn in hell...
When the 14 year old boy from Palmyra, New York told people that he had been visited by heavenly beings... it galvanized the warring sects and they all turned on him accusing him of being "all manner of (evil) things".
The hatred grew and swelled as young Joseph Smith became more and more prominent and more and more successful in convincing people of the truthfulness of his "newly" found gospel...
He and his followers were persecuted in the Palmyra area so they moved away to Kirtland, Ohio... They built their first temple to God and settled down... the persecution followed them and they abandonned their farms and shops and temple and moved on toward the west...
After several such migrations from persecution, hatred for the Mormons grew stronger and stronger, as did the rumor and inuendo...
Even when they had moved 1000 miles away, and lived in a desert that nobody wanted, the invective continued to grow...
Sometime after they settled in Salt Lake Valley (1847) it became commonly known that they practiced polygamy... This was jeered as immoral and evil beyond toleration and further enflamed their enemies... (It doesn't matter why the Mormons practiced polygamy... the only real justification thay needed was in the Bill of Rights... freedom of religion. It was outlawed by Congress because it was considered immoral. And the outlawing was the reason the Mormon Church ended the practice... It was against the Mormon Articles of Faith to intentionally break the law of the land.)
Note: Those who went to Mexico Were already married to more than one wife and they went there to escape the persecution and the new "law" which required them to abandon their loved ones.
(This is a prime example of the "wormtongue" mangling of the facts...)
When the 1849 Gold Rush in Kalifornica began many "49er's" traveled through Salt Lake City and southern Utah and northern Utah and southern Idaho to get to the West coast... No one wanted the barren lands the Mormons were settled on.
Wherever they went, from Palmyra to Salt Lake City, the Mormons were successful farmers and city builders... They drained swamps and built cities and farms and shops, schools and caused the desert bloom, and their accomplishments always drew unwanted attention to them...
It is inherant in mankind to despise those who are more successful than themselves and to covet what they have. The Mormons were hated for this reason as well...
Even today... the Mormons are persecuted in less violent and less overt ways.
But still the innuendo and rumors persist... usually by "wormtongues" who are always trying to expose the darkest side of things as if they have no blemishes of their own.
i.e., Promiscuous and immoral people who sneer at polygamy practiced by consenting adults... but march in parades to publically expose their own sexual preferences or their racial prejudices or think nothing of drunkeness and drug abuse and abortion and "wormtonguing" and the hypocrisy of so-called Christians preaching all manner of lies against the Mormons at the front gates of their own temples!
I have lived in Utah long enough to see many, many non-Mormons move into Utah to escape the social failures of Kalifornica etc. (Which they bring with them.) and partake of the family orientation here and then they complain that the Mormon's are, to their way of thinking, not Christians and because the Mormon's have their own family oriented lifestyle (Which dominates nearly all of their time.) say they are un-neighborly and cold and even snobbish...
I have observed them, objectively, long enough to KNOW that they are nothing like that, and I do not feel altogether comfortable in the presence of their kindness and genteel and humble ways.
They are among the finest people anywhere to be found... And I would be delighted if I could measure up to their high standards.
And of course it's gun related... I believe people need guns to defend themselves agaist such lowlife's, and to massacre Mormons, and to massacre their massacerer's and to keep would be massacrers at a distance... However, the Mormon church does not share in my opinion and will be abused, as always, until their God puts a stop to it! (I think, sooner or later He will do exactly that...)
Thanks for asking...
How long do you think these "enemies" of the Mormon's were hanging around?
It was reported to Brigham Young and by the time it got to and from... the "massacre" was over and done.
This is "wormtonguing". A twisting of the truth.
In fact, you said...
This is painting lies with the truth brush... It is what you incinuate and do not explain and what you don't say that condemns your subjective report...
For the record the specifics of what you say are pretty much accurate... the way you say it "shades" the truth and completely dispenses with understanding and fairness...
If the tar and feathers fit...
You appear to wear it with pride.
DasBoot
I do truly believe that we should not "massacre"... I just don't practice what I preach.
I have blood on my hands... and violence in my heart.
A massacre indicates an attack by the perpetrators... However, I believe in attacking my enemies FIRST...
In those times there was GREAT turmoil in the United States between all Christian sects...
They would each preach that theirs was the true way to believe and that everyone else would burn in hell...
When the 14 year old boy from Palmyra, New York told people that he had been visited by heavenly beings... it galvanized the warring sects and they all turned on him accusing him of being "all manner of (evil) things".
The hatred grew and swelled as young Joseph Smith became more and more prominent and more and more successful in convincing people of the truthfulness of his "newly" found gospel...
He and his followers were persecuted in the Palmyra area so they moved away to Kirtland, Ohio... They built their first temple to God and settled down... the persecution followed them and they abandonned their farms and shops and temple and moved on toward the west...
After several such migrations from persecution, hatred for the Mormons grew stronger and stronger, as did the rumor and inuendo...
Even when they had moved 1000 miles away, and lived in a desert that nobody wanted, the invective continued to grow...
Sometime after they settled in Salt Lake Valley (1847) it became commonly known that they practiced polygamy... This was jeered as immoral and evil beyond toleration and further enflamed their enemies... (It doesn't matter why the Mormons practiced polygamy... the only real justification thay needed was in the Bill of Rights... freedom of religion. It was outlawed by Congress because it was considered immoral. And the outlawing was the reason the Mormon Church ended the practice... It was against the Mormon Articles of Faith to intentionally break the law of the land.)
Note: Those who went to Mexico Were already married to more than one wife and they went there to escape the persecution and the new "law" which required them to abandon their loved ones.
(This is a prime example of the "wormtongue" mangling of the facts...)
When the 1849 Gold Rush in Kalifornica began many "49er's" traveled through Salt Lake City and southern Utah and northern Utah and southern Idaho to get to the West coast... No one wanted the barren lands the Mormons were settled on.
Wherever they went, from Palmyra to Salt Lake City, the Mormons were successful farmers and city builders... They drained swamps and built cities and farms and shops, schools and caused the desert bloom, and their accomplishments always drew unwanted attention to them...
It is inherant in mankind to despise those who are more successful than themselves and to covet what they have. The Mormons were hated for this reason as well...
Even today... the Mormons are persecuted in less violent and less overt ways.
But still the innuendo and rumors persist... usually by "wormtongues" who are always trying to expose the darkest side of things as if they have no blemishes of their own.
i.e., Promiscuous and immoral people who sneer at polygamy practiced by consenting adults... but march in parades to publically expose their own sexual preferences or their racial prejudices or think nothing of drunkeness and drug abuse and abortion and "wormtonguing" and the hypocrisy of so-called Christians preaching all manner of lies against the Mormons at the front gates of their own temples!
I have lived in Utah long enough to see many, many non-Mormons move into Utah to escape the social failures of Kalifornica etc. (Which they bring with them.) and partake of the family orientation here and then they complain that the Mormon's are, to their way of thinking, not Christians and because the Mormon's have their own family oriented lifestyle (Which dominates nearly all of their time.) say they are un-neighborly and cold and even snobbish...
I have observed them, objectively, long enough to KNOW that they are nothing like that, and I do not feel altogether comfortable in the presence of their kindness and genteel and humble ways.
They are among the finest people anywhere to be found... And I would be delighted if I could measure up to their high standards.
And of course it's gun related... I believe people need guns to defend themselves agaist such lowlife's, and to massacre Mormons, and to massacre their massacerer's and to keep would be massacrers at a distance... However, the Mormon church does not share in my opinion and will be abused, as always, until their God puts a stop to it! (I think, sooner or later He will do exactly that...)
Thanks for asking...
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Rich Lucibella
Staff
I find the issue and the recounts here fascinating, if not always believable.
One MAJOR coincidence I don't understand, however, especially given the fact that it seems to be the only point in these recounts that leads to some sense of sympathy for the Mormon settlers:
I am willing to believe that a group from Independence, MO, raped and murdered these settlers and stole their lands. The brow-raiser comes in the sequel to the story. Soon after taking those lands, the Independence folk abandoned them to head west. Just by happenstance, they came across the remnants of their scourge, some 1,100 miles west and threatened to finish the job? Perfect stuff for a Josey Wales script.
Oh, and the Polygamy history lesson? Not buying it, though I've no personal problem with the practice. If the men were dying at a far greater rate than the women due to persecution and travel, the polygamy issue would only need to last for about a generation. Do the math.
Rich
One MAJOR coincidence I don't understand, however, especially given the fact that it seems to be the only point in these recounts that leads to some sense of sympathy for the Mormon settlers:
I am willing to believe that a group from Independence, MO, raped and murdered these settlers and stole their lands. The brow-raiser comes in the sequel to the story. Soon after taking those lands, the Independence folk abandoned them to head west. Just by happenstance, they came across the remnants of their scourge, some 1,100 miles west and threatened to finish the job? Perfect stuff for a Josey Wales script.
Oh, and the Polygamy history lesson? Not buying it, though I've no personal problem with the practice. If the men were dying at a far greater rate than the women due to persecution and travel, the polygamy issue would only need to last for about a generation. Do the math.
Rich
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