More Waco...unravelling continues

DC

Moderator Emeritus
http://www.dallasmorningnews.com/specials/waco/0913waco111gun.htm

Long article, well worth the read.
Here is a teaser...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Rangers' report deepens questions about
gun use on last day of siege

FBI has said casings could be from ATF

09/13/99

By Lee Hancock / The Dallas Morning News

A Texas Rangers report on evidence from the Branch Davidian siege
resolves some mysteries but deepens others, including questions about
whether the government fired guns or high explosives on the final day of the
1993 tragedy.

The report sent Friday to Congress indicates that the Rangers' evidence
trove includes a dozen .308-caliber sniper rifle shell casings and 24
Israeli-made .223-caliber casings recovered from a house used by the
FBI's hostage rescue team throughout the 51-day siege. The house is the
same one from which an FBI agent reported hearing shots fired on the final
day of the Branch Davidian standoff.

The agent has since formally changed his story, and FBI officials insist that
none of their agents fired a single shot during the standoff. Bureau officials
have noted that the shell casings could have come from agents of the
federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, who used the house as
a sniper post and shot repeatedly at the Branch Davidian compound as
they tried to search it on Feb. 28, 1993.

But the issue is a cornerstone of a federal lawsuit filed by surviving Branch
Davidians against the government. And the discovery of shell casings is
potentially even more explosive because the FBI agent in charge of the
sniper post was Lon Horiuchi, the FBI sniper who fatally shot the wife of a
white separatist during the federal standoff at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, in late
1992.

Mr. Horiuchi has denied firing any shots in Waco, but a federal judge
presiding over the Branch Davidian lawsuit recently refused to drop him as
a defendant in the case.

The Rangers report offers no conclusions about the potential significance of
the sniper rounds or other evidence under scrutiny.

But law-enforcement officials in Texas say that the report presents
compelling questions for both Congress and former Sen. John Danforth,
the special investigator appointed last week by the U.S. Justice
Department to re-examine the Waco case.

"We now have ballistics exams that can take a shell casing and determine
exactly what gun it was fired from," said one official in Texas who declined
to be identified. "We need to see what weapons ATF had and what
weapons FBI had, and we can tell you exactly which ones fired these
shells.

"This is something that has never been looked at," the official said. "There
are things here that are potentially very troubling."

The Rangers report suggests how limited the initial investigation of the
tragedy may have been and how tightly it was controlled by the FBI -
although federal officials had publicly insisted that the case was led by a
special task force of more than 30 Texas Rangers.

"There needs to be a reanalysis of everything in this case in light of what's
recently come out," one official said. "People have said there have already
been investigations. But there has never been an investigation of what
happened on the law-enforcement side, of what law enforcement did."

In the report, a Texas Rangers sergeant assigned to sort through the
Branch Davidian evidence kept by the Texas Department of Public Safety
wrote that his efforts were slowed by the lack of a complete set of crime
scene photographs from the case........(more)[/quote]


------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Thanks, DC. I'll sleep better tonight knowing Mr. Lon Horiuchi is still on the job ... his motto is 'I always get my man ... woman and children'. This guy sounds very dirty, and I base that not only on existing investigative results, but also on discussions I had with one of the jurors on the Ruby Ridge case. I look forward to hearing what else the man might have 'accomplished' at Waco.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited September 13, 1999).]
 
Let's see, now...

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>"Israeli-made .223-caliber casings"? The Fibs, er, I mean Feds, don't use American ammo? How much 5.56mm does the USG have on hand? Or is the military stuff foreign manufacture now, too?

<LI>"...who used the house as a sniper post and shot repeatedly at the Branch Davidian compound as they tried to search it on Feb. 28, 1993." Snipers for a "suprise" search warrant? Does this fall under the military precept of "reconnaissance by fire"?

<LI>"We need to see what weapons ATF had and what weapons FBI had, and we can tell you exactly which ones fired these shells." Anyone care to bet the Acrimonious Acronymic Agencies have lost, destroyed or misplaced the firearms in question? They're awfully good at losing evidence that doesn't fit the offical line.

<LI>Seven head shots? What's that, "half-a-dozen shots, one kill"? Either they really don't trust their shooting, or...with Horiuchi in command (how's that for precedent)...
</UL>

[This message has been edited by RepublicThunderbolt (edited September 13, 1999).]
 
Whoa....another one
http://www.startelegram.com/news/doc/1047/1:FRONT73/1:FRONT73091299.html

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> |
Updated: Sunday, Sep. 12, 1999 at 00:13 CDT

Military forces' role in Waco challenged

By Jennifer Autrey
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

The images of Bradley fighting vehicles punching holes in the
wooden compound of the Branch Davidian sect and of helicopters
hovering overhead as the structure burned have become etched in
America's collective psyche.

The extent and legality of the military involvement in the 51- day
siege at the Mount Carmel compound near Waco six years ago is
expected to be a focus of upcoming investigations into the fiery end
of the siege on April 19, 1993. The bodies of sect leader David
Koresh and about 80 of his followers were recovered in the fire's
remains. Among questions surrounding the operation is how military
personnel, equipment and munitions were used and whether the
government had a role in setting the blaze that consumed the
compound. At the heart of the questions about military involvement
is the Posse Comitatus Act, which prohibits the armed forces from
participating in civilian law enforcement operations.

Some issues expected to be examined are:

* The involvement of the Delta Force, an elite, top-secret Army
unit established to combat terrorism. Some former government
officials say the Delta Force had a greater role in the operation than
the FBI acknowledges and, as a result, violated the Posse
Comitatus Act.

In a sworn affidavit, a former sergeant first class in Army Special
Forces said a noncommissioned officer told him that the Delta
Force's "B" Squadron had been ordered to "take down" the Branch
Davidians at Mount Carmel.

* Whether federal officials used a 1990 change in the Posse
Comitatus Act -- allowing the use of the military in anti-drug
operations -- to assist the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
and the FBI in the Waco siege and assault.

When the ATF asked the military for help in staging its initial raid of
the compound on Feb. 28, 1993, military officers said the ATF would
have to reimburse the Army for any assistance because there was
"no known drug nexus," according to Lt. Col. Lon Walker, an Army
liaison to the ATF.

Less than a month later, the ATF added "drug activity" to the
matters it was investigating in regard to the Branch Davidians, a
move that a congressional report called "deliberately misleading."

* Possible violations of Texas and Alabama state laws prohibiting
the use of National Guard personnel and equipment against the
Branch Davidians.

Texas law prohibits the use of the Texas National Guard in civilian
law enforcement unless there is a clear drug connection. Alabama
law says its National Guard force has no authority outside state
boundaries.

National Guard personnel and equipment from both states were used
at Mount Carmel. A congressional report has determined that those
actions were taken without proper authority.

Delta Force

Recent revelations indicate that the Delta Force had a greater
presence and a more active role in the final assault on the Branch
Davidians than FBI officials have acknowledged. According to at
least one account, the Delta Force was there not to advise, but to
kill.

Steven Barry, a retired Special Forces sergeant who sometimes
trained members of the Delta Force, gave a sworn affidavit to
plaintiffs' attorneys in a civil suit brought by families of dead Branch
Davidians. The case is scheduled to go to trial in Waco on Oct. 18.

In the affidavit, Barry quoted a friend in the Delta Force as saying
the unit set up a tactical operations center during the siege that
was staffed by 10 to 20 soldiers.

Barry said another friend in the Delta Force told him that the unit's
"B" Squadron had been ordered to "take down" Branch Davidians.
Barry said he understood from his experience in the Special Forces
that "take down" meant to kill people identified as terrorists.

Barry isn't alone in these allegations.

Former CIA officer Gene Cullen has said in several recent interviews
that he learned through casual conversations with Delta Force
members that 10 of the unit's commandos were present during the
April 19, 1993, assault and may have participated.

Similarly, James B. Francis, commissioner of the Texas Department
of Public Safety, said "it is clear" that members of the Delta Force
were on the scene. Initial reports indicated that three members
were present, but Francis said he is now being told that as many as
10 were there.

"There is some evidence that might indicate that they were more
than observers," Francis said. "It is fuzzy as to what their role was."

Francis said law enforcement officials and civilians have provided
first- and second-hand reports on Delta Force activities. He
declined to elaborate further.

Evidence gathered after the Mount Carmel fire was in the hands of
Texas law enforcement officials until U.S. District Judge Walter
Smith Jr. ordered all evidence surrendered to the federal clerk in
Waco.

Government attorneys have indicated in some court documents that
as many as 10 "classified" military personnel were present, said
Houston attorney Mike Caddell, who filed the wrongful death lawsuit
on behalf of about 100 people, mostly relatives of dead Branch
Davidians.

"We've been told that there were 10 military personnel, but they
won't tell us who they were," he said.

Caddell said government attorneys were asked to answer questions
in connection with the lawsuit. One of the questions asked for a list
of all military personnel who were at Mount Carmel.

Government officials listed Army medical personnel, the Texas
National Guard and 10 others whose identity they said is classified
information, Caddell said.

Army Col. Bill Darley, a Defense Department spokesman, said the
Pentagon has stated that it had only three Special Operations
personnel at Mount Carmel and he has seen nothing to refute that
statement. Two soldiers were present during most of the siege to
maintain high-tech equipment, he said. Another was there when the
compound burned, but only as an observer, he said.

"We had a presence there for support only," Darley said. "All other
allegations appear to us to be unfounded and without basis in fact."

That distinction is crucial, according to federal law.

If what Barry and Cullen say is true, military personnel may have
violated the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids use of military
personnel in civilian law enforcement except in special cases
approved by Congress.

The prohibition applies only to direct participation by soldiers in an
arrest, search or seizure. Soldiers may train civilian law enforcement
agents or provide military vehicles and munitions.

A congressional report determined that all members of the military
were present only as observers and that no violation of the act had
occurred. The report, "Investigation into the Activities of Federal
Law Enforcement Agencies Toward the Branch Davidians," was
issued in August 1996 by the House Government Reform and
Oversight Committee and the House Judiciary Committee after their
1995 hearings.

Darley said Pentagon policy prevented him from discussing further
any of its "special missions units" such as Delta Force.

Drug ruse?

Some evidence suggests that the ATF created a ruse about the
possibility of illegal drug manufacturing at Mount Carmel to obtain
free military assistance for its Feb. 28, 1993, raid, which left four
ATF agents dead and more than 20 wounded.

As early as November 1992, ATF agents were discussing the need
for military support with Walker, the agency's Defense Department
liaison, according to Treasury Department documents. The ATF is
part of the Treasury Department.

But there was a problem.

In a meeting with the ATF on Dec. 4, 1992, Walker informed the
agency that it would have to pay the military for the use of its
equipment because the military could waive the charges only in
anti-drug operations.

At the meeting, Walker jotted a handwritten note that said: "There
was no known drug nexus," according to the Treasury Department
documents.

The bill would have been considerable. The military assistance at
Waco cost about $1 million, according to a General Accounting
Office report released Aug. 26. About 90 percent of the cost was
incurred by the Texas National Guard and U.S. Army, the report
said.

That military personnel can play a greater role assisting civilian law
enforcement in drug investigations is a significant exception to the
Posse Comitatus Act, passed as part of the 1990 Department of
Defense Authorization Act to help fight illegal drug importation.

Before the end of December 1992, the ATF was investigating
"suspicion of drug activity" at the Branch Davidian compound,
according to the Treasury Department report.

That addition to the points of investigation apparently was based
on a Dec. 16, 1992, facsimile from Marc Breault in Australia, who
suggested that a methamphetamine lab had once been seen on
Branch Davidian premises. Congressional investigators later
determined that Breault was a former Branch Davidian who had left
the sect on bad terms.

Former Branch Davidians said Koresh had discovered the lab when
he arrived at Mount Carmel and had telephoned the McLennan
County Sheriff's Department to report it and to ask that deputies
confiscate it, but no one ever came, the congressional report said.
The building Breault said the lab was in burned down three years
before the ATF raid, the report also said.

David Kopel, a former Colorado assistant attorney general and now
a researcher for the Independence Institute, a conservative think
tank in Colorado, said he was not surprised by the ATF's decision to
add "drug activity" component to the investigation.

"All the military wants is the word `drugs,"' Kopel said. "Nobody
cares if it's true."

However, the initial application for a warrant to search the
compound included nothing about suspected drug violations. After
agents failed to serve the warrant on Feb. 28, 1993, the day of the
aborted first assault, they applied for another warrant and
expanded its scope. That warrant also made no mention of drugs.

The congressional report states that the Feb. 28 raid should have
been conducted differently if there was a real concern about the
prospect of a clandestine methamphetamine lab on the premises.
Because such labs usually contain explosive and toxic chemicals,
standard procedure calls for the arrest of lab operators away from
their laboratories. Koresh was regularly seen in Waco and could
easily have been apprehended, officials have said.

"All those justifying stories have kind of gone up in smoke: drug use,
machine guns, child abuse," said Daniel Polsby, a professor at
George Mason University's law school who specializes in
constitutional law.

The congressional committees eventually determined that the "ATF
misled the Defense Department as to the existence of a drug nexus
in order to obtain non-reimbursable support."

Darley, the Pentagon spokesman, said he wouldn't comment on any
conclusions reached by Congress. But he said the Pentagon concurs
with an Aug. 26 General Accounting Office report, which determined
that the approval of military counterdrug support was reasonable
and authorized.

National Guard involvement

The use of Texas and Alabama National Guard units at Mount Carmel
may have violated laws in both states and perhaps the U.S.
Constitution.

Convincing state officials that drugs were involved in the Branch
Davidian investigation was crucial to involvement of the Texas
National Guard.

The Posse Comitatus Act does not prohibit use of state National
Guard personnel for local law enforcement, but Texas law does.
State law allows the use of its National Guard helicopters for law
enforcement only if there is a evidence of drug violations.

On Dec. 11, 1992, ATF Special Agent Jose Viegra met with
representatives of Gov. Ann Richards' office to discuss the role of
the military in any potential ATF action against the Branch
Davidians, Treasury Department documents show.

Viegra was told he could not make use of Operation Alliance, which
serves as a clearinghouse for several agencies involved in drug
investigations along the Southwest border, unless there was a drug
component.

Three days later, according to a Treasury Department memorandum,
Operation Alliance officials received a facsimile from the ATF
requesting assistance from the Texas Counterdrug Program, which
included the National Guard.

Lt. Col. William Pettit, Texas National Guard coordinator of the
Texas Counterdrug Task Force, signed off on the request. The ATF
fax made no reference to suspected drug violations in the
compound, casting Pettit's approval in doubt, according to the
congressional report.

After the Feb. 28 raid, ATF Deputy Director Daniel Hartnett wrote
Gov. Richards a letter on March 27, 1993, denying allegations that
Mount Carmel did not have the necessary drug activity to justify
the Texas National Guard's involvement.

"Please let me assure you that nothing could be further from the
truth," Hartnett wrote.

Hartnett wrote that 11 sect members "have some prior drug
involvement, some with arrests for possession and trafficking."
However, when ATF agents were interviewed by Treasury
Department officials in a post-siege review, they said that only one
Branch Davidian had a drug conviction, the congressional report
said.

The use of the Texas National Guard isn't the only questionable
Guard involvement.

The ATF also used the Alabama National Guard for aerial
photography on Jan. 14, 1993. That task was authorized by a
"memorandum of agreement" between the adjutants general of the
Texas National Guard and the Alabama National Guard.

According to Texas law, the National Guard from another state
cannot be used without approval of the Texas governor. Alabama
state law says that its National Guard has no authority to conduct
operations outside the state.

National Guard personnel said in a post-raid Guard investigation that
Gov. Richards did not approve the use of the Alabama National
Guard. Military documents released to Congress during its 1995
hearings indicated that Richards was unaware of the extent of the
Texas National Guard's involvement until after the Feb. 28 raid, the
congressional report said. Neither Richards nor members of her staff
at the time could not be reached to comment last week.

Use of the Alabama National Guard may also have violated the U.S.
Constitution, the congressional report said, although that issue was
outside the scope of the congressional investigation.

The Constitution specifically prohibits states from entering into
treaties without congressional consent. The National Guard Bureau
takes the position that use of the National Guard for law
enforcement purposes across state lines is therefore strictly
prohibited.

"Thus, it appears that the Alabama National Guard entered and
conducted military operations in Texas without the proper authority
to do so," the congressional report said.

Staff writer Gabrielle Crist contributed to this report.

Jennifer Autrey, (817) 548-5476
Send comments to jautrey@star-telegram.com

Tomorrow: Despite government denials, one agent's statement says
that the FBI fired shots on April 19, 1993, court records show.[/quote]

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
I've been increasingly dropping hints to several family members about the current lawless rampages and flagrant abuses of the Grubbymint, and the normally-political ostriches seem to be finally responding. Articles such as these from "real" news sources help the credibility quite a bit.

I'm concerned, though, that with the rampant misuse by the media and other leftists of terms such as "assault weapon", "submachine gun" and others, my beater 700 ADL in .308 now seems to be classified as a "sniper rifle". :(

------------------
Don LeHue

The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arms reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.
 
More benefits from our successful 'drug war'. This is a natural consequence of bad policy, not just isolated instances of poor human judgement.

We probably still have very long odds that the truth will come out and justice will be done ...
 
You know, I just had an epiphany...

The reason the gov't keeps drugs illegal is not only to employ more judges, police, and lawyers.

IT'S TO ALLOW THE GOV'T TO "GET AROUND" THE CONSTITUION AT WILL, CONFISCATE LAWFUL PRIVATE PROPERTY AND KILL ANYONE WHO'D STAND IN THEIR WAY.

I don't know WHY I didn't see this before... But "we've GOT to do it for the *children*".

You betcha.
 
DC There are some inaccuracies in the story. The president can sign an order authorizing the use of military force in the US. For the Army's view of the matter go to this URL http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/parameters/97autumn/lujan.htm

This is an article written at the Army War College, (you don't make General without the War College diploma) about use of military force in domestic missions. It specifcally addresses Waco and credits the Special Forces operational Detachment that was assigned to JTF-6 with calling their JAG at Ft Bragg (I assume but could have been Devens or Campbell or Lewis depending where the ODA was from) and keeping military involvement from being much greater.

Republic Thunderbolt The US government has been buying IMI ammo for years. I've been issued .45 Ball that was marked IMI right on the box. So it's not surprizing that IMI shell casings were found.

This is starting to get very interesting, but I hold no hope that anyone will be held accountable.
Jeff
 
Jeff, That URL is a very long read but at first look it re scares the crap out of me!
Starts out with the military "helping out" during time of natural disaster and goes right on into our worst nightmare!
It's those "baby steps" "letters of comfort"
JUST LET ME PUT IT IN A LITTLE BIT sorry, I ment to say "just let the camel put his nose in the tent" That have taken us down this long path.
It seems to me, that after 223 years we are now the subjects of the government that "we as a people" founded.
My .000007 Hank
 
Please don't call that clown from FBI a sniper. You'd think they would send him away to a wonderful asignment someplace to investigate candy theft crossing a state line after his showing at the Weavers. A man that can pull the trigger and work the bolt yes, a sniper, not in a million years.

Onto the article, I think like lots of you, we still have not seen the whole story, don't know that we ever will, but I'm fairly certain that we'll see more stuff to turn our stomachs. Probable see enough stuff to turn our heart away from goverment. Wonder what Reno's take on all this is. I told my dad sunday, I see the Weavers and Waco as the governments message to us not to resist. Sorry it didn't get through my thick skull.



------------------
Live Free or Die Trying,

Steve
 
The thing that caught my attention was the part about the shell casings being left overs from the initial ATF assault. Does anybody here really believe that the FBI walked around used shell casings in the building they were using for 51 days and nobody ever bothered to pick them up?
It would mean they were either extremely stupid or extremely sloppy.
Lies on top of lies on top of more lies.
 
In the Austin newpaper Sunday was an article about how the feds are falling all over themselves at the courthouse here to keep some documents that the Texas Rangers have from being made public. The Rangers got approval from a judge on Sat and first thing Sun a federal judge stepped in to stop it. Now if they are so concerned about getting to the bottom of the cover up why are they trying so hard to keep things secret?
 
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