MORE reforming tales of woe

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Kosh75287

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I'm using Lee 8x57mm dies, and a mix of commercial and military .30-06 brass. It APPEARS to me that I've bumped back the shoulders the right amount, and I believe I've trimmed to the requisite length (57mm +1mm), but the bolt won't close on the reformed cases. I have 22 cases that started life as 8x57mm cartridges, which resize, chamber, seat projectiles, and chamber again, without a problem, so it's not the dies, it's not the reloader (with that brass, anyway), and not a problem that I've had much luck at all in tracking down.

I placed the ram on my press (not a Lee) at the top of the stroke, screwed the 8x57mm resizing die into the press until it touched the shell holder(Lee). In this state, I cannot move the ram without unscrewing the die, slightly. I unscrewed the die just enough to allow the ram to move freely, and resized the trimmed cases. I couldn't close the bolt completely on ANY of the cases thus resized.

When I screwed the die down 1/8 of a turn and resized, I could close the bolt on the brass about 1/3 to 1/2 of the bolt-handle's arc of travel. When I turned the die down another 1/8 turn, a barely visible but palpably discernable bulge at the base of the shoulder formed, and the bolt wouldn't close at all on the case
As a matter of curiosity, I resized the brass on which the slight shoulder formed, and found that the bolt would close on it, with only slightly more effort than was needed for a new factory round.

I am VERY leery about forming, then UN-forming a slight bulge on a case, and then subjecting said case to pressures ranging from 32,000 p.s.i. to 75% over that.

PLEASE do not hesitate to point out my error/oversight/banjaxical nature in this endeavor.

And lest we discuss the worth of our time vs. the cost of brass and all the economics appertaining thereunto, readily available 8x57mm brass is now $1.70/case (that's the brass IN STOCK, not on back order), and I am a college student, so a great portion of my shooting $$ is routinely getting converted to tuition and books. Additionally, this is a technique I'd REALLY like to master well, so my tenacity is unlikely to fade with increased income.

All input and suggestions will be gratefully received.
 
I had a somewhat similar problem recently. My problem was probably not the same as yours, but what I finally did was grab the micrometer and calipers and measure everything. Took me a while, but I figured it out (case neck walls were too thick, and once a bullet was seated the neck of the loaded case was a larger diameter than the match chamber would accept). So that wouldn't be your problem, but compare measurement of cases that will chamber to those that won't. I'm guessing the shoulder is too far forward on the ones that won't chamber. So, time to measure stuff.

If you don't have the gear to measure shoulder position, some good calipers and a pistol case to fit over the rifle case neck will give you a measure of difference between shoulders of cases that will chamber and ones that won't.
 
I see your point.

Thanks for the input!

I think what you're saying may have merit to it.

Unfortunately, the ones which chamber without (much) trouble had their shoulders moved back by creating a slight bulge at the base of the shoulder, then having said bulge removed by resizing (makes me nervous when contemplating chamber pressures between 32,000 and 58,000 p.s.i.).

I'll unearth my caliper from the pile of sh-sh-sh-reloading components on my bench and do some measuring. But if the only way to bump the shoulders further back is to create a bulge at the shoulder's base, I may have the wrong set of dies for this job.
 
You're not accounting for the brass springing back after the sizing die has done it's job. AND you're not accounting for the spring in the metal of the press.

Your method of setting the die does not account for the above mentioned spring back of the press linkage, the frame, and the brass. The shoulder and neck used to be part of the body of the '06 case. That brass is harder than the mouth of the original '06 case. AND forming that brass hardens it further.

Run that die into the press until it touches the top of the shell holder. Then put a lubed '06 case into the forming operation. With the ram all-the-way-up, look to see if you can see a gap between the bottom of the die and the top of the shell holder with the ram at the top of it's travel and the case as far in as it can go. That's where the spring of all the components will be at the max. You WILL have to turn the die in anther 1/8 to ¼ turn to compensate.

If those shells still will not chamber, you may have to remove some steel from either the top of the shell holder or the bottom of the die.
 
If you rub ink on the round and try to chamber it over and over, the ink will wear off where the interference is.

Or if the brass and bullet are shiny and new enough, you can just see the micro scratches under magnification.
 
I can not help you with anything Lee. Then when it comes to forming a case, I can help. I am a case forming reloader. I form first then fire. I do not skip steps as in going from 30/06 straight to 8mm57 with a sizing die. too many failures and the perfect case to form is a new, over the counter never fired case. Next? Anneal first then form.

I have at least 16 forming dies. My favorite is the 308 W, second favorite is the 243 W. Third?

I have paid for all of my forming dies in savings, meaning I have purchased 30/06 cases for as little as 1 cent each and I have purchased pull down military cases for 7 cents each. No matter what, when I form cases a case can not cost me more than 10 cents each.

Forming cases saves me on toilet paper, oatmeal, cereal, primers and powder. I form first then fire, when I eject a case it is once fired or twice fired. All others fire to form. I am not a fire forming reloader.

Then there are those chambers with long case bodies and short necks like the 30 Gibbs. The neck is .217" long, when forming those cases I neck the case up to 338/06 or 35 Whelen then size them back with the correct length from the shoulder to the case head. Problem? No, When following instructions those cases shorten .040" +/- a few. Instead of using 30/06 cases I use 280 Remington cases, 280 Remington cases have an additional length of .051".

F. Guffey
 
Unfortunately, the ones which chamber without (much) trouble had their shoulders moved back by creating a slight bulge at the base of the shoulder, then having said bulge removed by resizing (makes me nervous when contemplating chamber pressures between 32,000 and 58,000 p.s.i.).
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I have turned cases in to accordion/bellow looking 'things' for a different reason, but when you are creating bulges below the shoulder you are doing something seriously wrong. Most bulges that develop below the case body/shoulder juncture is caused by seating bullets with the crimp portion of the die adjusted to low.

F. Guffey
 
If you are creating creases and folds when forming cases expect them when you are going straight from a 30/06 case to 8mm57 with a full length sizing die. Many years ago I was told not to worry about the creases and folds, I was told they would 'pop' straight out, that is when I learned to say 'fantastic'.

F. Guffey
 
"Terminological Inexactitude"

when you are creating bulges below the shoulder you are doing something seriously wrong.
Click to expand...

Okay, lemme make sure you and I are on the same page with respect to terminology. The "bulge" is at the point where the shoulder STARTS from the straight (longest) part of the case. At the point where the shoulder taper starts.

I'm way ahead of you in the context of doing something seriously wrong, SOMEwhere (or my reformed brass would chamber flawlessly), I just don't know whether it's at the shoulder.

I think I'll try Clark's suggestion and ink up some of the cases that won't chamber.

If other ideas come to mind, please feel free to relay them.
 
If other ideas come to mind, please feel free to relay them.
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Thank you. Terminology 'exactomundy' as it applies to the bulge location. Case body/shoulder juncture works for me. It should be impossible for a case to bulge while in a sizing die at that location. The can bulge at the shoulder/case body juncture in a seating die because? the seating does does not have case body support.

Bulging the case at or below the case body juncture happens when too much case neck is applied. I do not crimp bottle neck cases.

I placed the ram on my press (not a Lee) at the top of the stroke, screwed the 8x57mm resizing die into the press until it touched the shell holder(Lee). In this state, I cannot move the ram without unscrewing the die, slightly. I unscrewed the die just enough to allow the ram to move freely, and resized the trimmed cases. I couldn't close the bolt completely on ANY of the cases thus resized.
Click to expand...

I unscrewed the die just enough to allow the ram to move freely,
Click to expand...

I do not know what press you are using. When I unscrew the die I am not full length sizing/returning a case to minimum length. Again, when forming cases I use a forming die first, when trimming I use a hack saw, and finish with a file. When forming 30/06 cases to 8mm57 there could be 22" of trimming necessary. When forming 8mm57 cases I adjust the forming die to off set the length of the chamber. There are times I add .011" between shoulder of the case and case head.

And lest we discuss the worth of our time vs. the cost of brass and all the economics appertaining thereunto, readily available 8x57mm brass is now $1.70/case
Click to expand...

Formed cases can not cost me more than 10 cents each, I have purchases 30/06 cases for 1 cent each, I have purchased thousands of 30/06 cases for 7 cents each. And I have purchased forming dies. After I formed 100 cases the forming die is paid for. I have forming dies for chambers I do not have, it helps to form a case progressively meaning I do not go for all of it with one stroke of the ram.

F. Guffey
 
How are you trying to chamber the formed brass? You have to remember how the ejector works and the cartridges feed. Mausers feed from the stack not individually so besides you not forming the cases quite enough you could be fighting the ejector because you are trying to feed the cases individually down the bore instead of from below.
 
Are you trimming the 30/06 brass before running into 8x57 die?

Are you neck reaming after forming to 8x57? This conversion may require both neck reaming and outside neck turning.
 
Are you trimming the 30/06 brass before running into 8x57 die?

Are you neck reaming after forming to 8x57? This conversion may require both neck reaming and outside neck turning.
Click to expand...

I use a hack saw, then finish with a file. Reaming/neck turning. The 8mm57 chamber has a large neck, the 30/06 formed case reduces the clearance between the case neck and chamber, I have never found it necessary to turn the necks.

When trimming it is necessary to remove 1/4" from the neck when going from 30/06 to 8mm57, that is 25"+ of trimming for 100 cases.

F. Guffey
 
Mr. Guffey, I am delighted that you happened into all that inexpensive .30-06 brass, and I'm all but delirious that you'll never be out much money for reformed brass. I don't have access to that much surplus brass, certainly not at the price you paid, so the values associated with MY cost/benefit analysis are profoundly different. I cited the prices I found online to obviate the need to explain to anyone why I didn't just buy new brass for the rifle.

The press I am using is an old Lyman Spartan press I inherited. My LEE single stage press pulled out at the mounting recesses, when I was resizing some MilSurp 7.62x51 brass. I learned later that the brass could very well have come from a "generously chambered" machine gun. I gotta admit, though, by the time I got all 600 of the resized, my upper body strength had substantially improved!

I am aware of the problems associated with over-crimping cartridges in a seating die, as well as seating bullets with the seating die screwed down too far. The results of doing so are glaringly apparent.
That's not the die in which THIS bulge, which is almost invisible, and barely palpable, is forming. Impossible? Obviously not. But I DO seem to have a talent for stumbling into the IMPROBABLE with disheartening frequency.

Mr. Mobuck, I am trimming the cases before reforming them. Tried it without doing so, and quickly learned why it's a good idea to trim first. Only cost me a coupla cases to learn THAT lesson, thankfully. I don't have the means to inside ream, nor outside turn the reformed cases, but it may not be necessary. I've been measuring the neck thickness as I expand it from .308" TO .323", and it appears the reformed neck could, if anything, be TOO thin. I hope not.

Mr. Hartcreek, I have tried chambering the formed brass by all three methods, and you're right about single-feeding them. I takes SOME fiddling to get the casehead to engage the extractor claw, THEN feed into the chamber, but the cases are going in the right way, to best of my knowledge.

It took several attempts, but I DO finally have them all chambering. Using the "ink test", it looks like I didn't take into account the lengthening of the case that arises from bumping the shoulder a hair's breadth further back.

I very VERY VERY much appreciate everyone's input in the matter. All of you made this process FAR less painful than it COULD have been!

NOW, I am off to anneal the cases, as I SHOULD have, in the FIRST place.

Thanks, ALL!
 
Die is down too far for one. The shell holder should just kiss the bottom of the die with the ram all the way up. No stopping the press working. The die being down too far will push the shoulder down and give you that wee bump too.
Trim to length for 8mm Mauser is 2.230". That's 56.6mm. 57 +/- 1mm is close enough though. Not a lot to 1mm.
Military .30-06 brass is a bit thicker than commercial. That might be an issue, but not likely.
What rifle? Headspace ok? It chamber ok with factory? Did you anneal the cases?
"...trimming the cases before reforming them..." Will likely give you wonky lengths. The brass will stretch and has to go somewhere.
"...press pulled out at the mounting..." What material is the top of your bench? OSB/Particle board breaks(literally the very first time I used my press on the cheapo bench, long ago.). Try and find about 1 square foot of 1/4 mild steel. Regular hand drill will work just fine.
 
I think your advice about the die just touching the shell holder was at least half of the answer. The rifle is a Vz-24 Mauser, manufactured in 1939. It chambers Remington factory ammo (with .30-40 Krag ballistics) flawlessly, and is tack-drivingly accurate. It chambers MilSurp (Turkish) 8x57mm ammo flawlessly and makes 5-round 100 yd. groups that fit into a teacup, just not where the scope says they should be (different problem).

I presume that headspace is okay, since I've reloaded factory 8x57mm rounds for it decades ago without incident. The reloads made from PPU brass ALSO chamber flawlessly, as do the reloads made from boxer-primed MilSurp brass. I won't know how they perform until my next trip to the range, but if function predicts performance, they should be fine. FINALLY, the reformed brass also chambers, and if they go bang and the bullets clear the barrel, and the brass doesn't shatter like candy-glass, I will momentarily be less concerned with accuracy from them, until better trimming equipment is available.

You misunderstand about the broken press. The bolt holes in the press BODY, through which the mounting bolts go to secure it to the bench, sheared off under the force I put on the ram. Said press was anchored to 3 layers of 23/32" plywood. When the press BODY departed, rapidly and with great enthusiasm, from the bolt holes which were ALSO part of the press body, the bolt recesses remained adamantly secured to the bench, until I loosened the bolts from the bench to remove them.
 
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After you anneal the cases stick a shim under the case when in the shell holder. You can fold up aluminum foil if you don't have any other kind of shim. Even beer cans can make good shims. I think I read you are a college student, you likely have a beer can and a pair of scissors.
 
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