More Junk firearm science passing as fact.

bandaid1

New member
Not that I'm a statistical genius or anything, nor am I certified scientist. However, articles like this one that sound like fact based on gun violence numbers from the CDC using junk science really makes me angry.

http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/2015/06/13/24-7-wall-st-states-most-gun-violence/71168956/

From the artical that was based on 2013 data from CDC:
"1. Alaska
2013 firearm death rate: 19.6 per 100,000 Total firearm deaths 2004-2013: 1,256 (10th lowest) Violent crime rate: 640.4 (the highest) Permit required to buy handgun: No
Poverty rate: 9.3% (2nd lowest)"

Ok, at first glance this may look like really bad for Alaska. However, look again,,, the death count over a "10 years period was 1,256", thats around 126 firearms deaths a year supposedly. Hmmmm,. well that number is wrong and it only makes sense when you realize that they are including everything and this is being expressed as a percentage of the population per 100,000. Yet the issue in the article is about whether gun control laws in each state are effective ( i.e are people being compliant with state laws by not shooting each other). In that case the total number of people in the state is not the important thing when assessing compliance with said laws. It's the total that do not do so that is important. Because the issue is about the effectiveness "policy" not the number of people they have. So lets see what the FBI says.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u..._20_murder_by_state_types_of_weapons_2013.xls

Looking at the FBI data (Table 20) for 2013 in Alaska - they had 12 unlawfull murders by firearms(not even close to 126). Wait, can that be right? Yep, the "news" people tend to overlook what the data from the CDC really says, which I'll explaint later. If we look the FBI reoprt of 2013(which is also not complete, Note that florida is missing), and assess noncompliance with state firearm use, and don't give any weight to the percentage as it relates to it population. In that case California is #1 with 1,224 murders by firearms, Texas with 760, , both Michigan and Pennsylvania with 440 each and New York with 362 would be the top 5 non-compliant states. The most compliant would be Alabama with 1, , South Dakota with 3, North Dakota with 4, and both Vermont and New Hamshire with 5 each.

Now when you look at the data from the CDC for 2013 report that I have included (below) that was used in the first article above:
Pay attention to the CDC report starting on page 22 with its catigories, then you will understand why the graph of states on page 63 is useless as it relates to firearms.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf For those that are unfamiliar with how the CDC gets their data and why it does not match the FBI report, it's because the CDC data is based on billing codes called ICD 10 codes, Disease Alert Reports and Accident/Injury Reports, Death certs and so on. All with a 10-20% error rate. This report is by no means 100% accurate since a victim of an incident, say a car crash in 2012, later dies in 2013 from an infection related to that the crash may be listed twice for different reasons, once for the car accident and later for the type of infection which caused his death. Thus all data can be questionable, but its the best we got.

The section I'm listing are for all age groups totals in 2013 page 22.

Accidental (unintentional ) -130,567 Transport accidents- 37,938 Motor vehicle accidents- 35,369 Non transport accident, total- 92,619 Falls - 30,208 Accidental firearms discharge- 505 Accidental Drowning- 3,391 Accidental smoke, fire, flames- 2,760 Accidental poisoning- 38,851

Other unspecific accidents- 16,904 Intentional self harm total Suicide- 41,148 Suicide by firearm- 21,175 Other suicide by unspecific means- 19,974 ` Assault homicide Total all types- 16,121 Homicide by firearms- 11,208 Homicide by other means- 4,913 Firearms deaths, legal intervention- 516 Drug induced deaths--46,471 Alochol induced deahs- 29,001

This information tells me alot more than the "hack science job" that news agencies provide. Interestingly, only around half the suicides, that year, were done with firearms, yet that went unnoticed? Of all the accidental deaths listed, Firearms deaths are dwarfed by any of the others. Illegal homicides by firearms for that year was 10, 692. The population for that year, in the USA, was 315,091,138 which means that our population had a 1 in 29,469 chance of being one of those illegal firearm dead that year. In that same year we had a 1 in 395 chance of dying from some form of a Cardiovascur Disorder and since everyone carries a Heart around with them, maybe the focus of these news article are a bit wrong headed?

The list that the news report used is on page 63 which is junk. If you look to the far left under the "Assault (Homicide) it states that in the United States, we had a total number of 16,121. That number coincides with the information on page 22. Now look at the part listed as "injury by firearm" under it lists the Number, Rate, and age adjusted rate. That number for the USA is 33,636. Well that number is not a field in the above report and what isn't explained is that it's a bunch of different groups of data added together to get that number. So where did they get this number?

Well if you add accidental firearms, plus suicide by firearm, plus assaults homocides by firearms, plus legal intervention with firearms you get 33,404 which still leaves 232 unaccounted for. Well its that damn "expressed as a relationship to 100,000 based on population.". Yes, like I said...... pure junk.
 
The only way it can be said that more guns equates to more murders is to lie.

Personally, I think CDC officials are acting unethically and abusing their authority by publishing such statistical drivel.

They need to answer some questions to their professional societies, licensing boards, managers, and congressional committees.
 
The only way it can be said that more guns equates to more murders is to lie.
Direct causality can't be proven. That matters little in the public debate. It's the correlation that gets used against us.

We have more guns per capita than, say, Japan. We have more homicides per capita than Japan. Does the first factor directly influence the second? That's yet to be proven. However, 99.67% of folks listening to a debate won't ask that.

We do have more homicides, and we do have more guns. Now, do we have more homicides because we have more guns? Folks have been going back and forth on that one for quite some time.

We make the same mistake when we claim that a higher prevalence or lessened regulations on ownership reduce violent crime.
 
I don't have a issue with the argument about "does less regulation of firearms and more guns cause less crime or does the presence of more guns cause more violent crime" at all. As in all things, sometimes there are no clear cut winners in any debate. I do not believe that anyone has been able to prove either theory on that issue. It's much more complicated than that.

I do have a problem with using junk science to prove either point. Agencies like the FBI and CDC that are suppose to be above reproach to honestly tell the American people the REAL facts, that aren't glazed over to a political motive. What they have done is an attempt at the old shell game/half truths an say its "scientific data" but it's just junk. They should all be fired on the spot.

I don't really blame the NEWS people for quoting such information. Most of them just regurgitate what these agencies tell them. I do fault the agencies for there misrepresentation of facts. The news people are just to ignorant to question the junk facts since it goes along with their narrative.

That field on page 63 is a direct attempt to say that there is a correlation with made up facts and stupid math tricks. That's not science.
 
CDC lost all credibility to me when they decided that firearms violence was a "disease" They WANTED to get into gun control, and to do so, and stay within their mandate, they decided it was a "disease".

Not everything is a disease. And doctors are NOT always right. And they are no more right or have any applicable expertise because they are doctors, than anyone else, when you get outside of medical fields.

Despite our increased technology and its precision, our language is sloppy. Lots of things are called "diseases" that are not.

Alcoholism is called a disease. It isn't. It's a condition.

Still within living memory (but no longer commonly admitted) is the fact that doctors were taught that homosexuality was a mental disorder, less than half a century ago.

you don't need to go back to the middle ages to find doctors being incredibly WRONG about many things.

One could go so far as to consider the issuance of deliberately skewed or distorted data as an ethical violation of their oath.

Doesn't it begin with "First, do no harm."???

LYING (via false data) to effect a desired social change is to me, harm.
 
How about the real harm the medical profession is directly responsible for.
According to some of the articles, statistics and claims found on the internet, deaths from medical care is way up there.
Here's a couple of sources:
http://chriskresser.com/medical-care-is-the-3rd-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-us/
http://medicinekillsmillions.com/articles/death-by-medicine-is-leading-cause-of-death.html
If true, we've got a lot more to worry about than guns and gun owners.
Maybe the CDC should make effort to clean up their own profession, instead..
 
^^^I'm with G.Willikers on this. More people killed by doctors and hospitals transmitting blood infections than by guns. And, the sad thing is that the doctors and hospitals know this and engage in cover-up of the facts every single day in every single hospital. Not even touching how many people are killed by drugs and drug contradictions. Just blood infections (MRSA).

Gun Control - just the medical industry and big pharma's plan to distract people from the the identity of the real killers.
 
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