More accurate in rapid fire?!?!?

[jephthai]

I wanted to run something by everybody here. I have been shooting some "house rules" F-class matches for the last year or so. It's been an excellent journey, where I'm learning a lot, and unlearning much of what I had found on the Internet .

Anyway, today I was shooting some groups at 100yds while a buddy was sighting in his deer rifle. I'm shooting an AR-15 chambered in 6.8SPCII. I normally shoot 1-1.5MOA -- my record group so far with this config was about 0.9 MOA. I wanted to use up all of my loaded ammo so I can keep all the cases at the same reload-count, so I decided to do something I've never done: I did the following 8-shot group in rapid fire:

Mind you, this was something like one shot every 1-2 seconds. Instead of my usual "hold, breathe, wait for trigger to break" routine, I went with "draw crosshair on target, press trigger when it looks about right." I was floored! I hit a 0.73MOA 8-shot target! (that hole to the lower left is part of a sighter group from half an hour earlier)

So what happened? I was wondering if maybe I'm psyching myself out on the slow-fire routine. Does it make sense that I might be fatiguing while I do the "slow press" on the trigger? I'm using a RRA national match 2-stage, and sometimes it takes what feels unbearably long for the trigger to break. I MUST be doing something when firing slowly that messes me up.

Can you help me diagnose it?

 

[10-96]

I don't know if it's possible to diagnose your concerns without seeing things firsthand, but yeah, it does kinda sound like you're psyching yourself out on the slowfire strings.

I believe triggers have a sweet speed, where too slow can be nearly as bad as too fast of a pull. That ties into muscle group isolation- what are all your associated muscles doing at the moment you're tensing up for the shot? Are you really locked in, or focusing too hard on chasing the "8" or "dot"? Sometimes I catch myself "thinking" I'm working hard to lock everything down tight when I'm actually getting quite jerky by over compensating to get back onto the dot.

Also, what is your breathing and blinking doing? The longer you go between breaths and blinks- the more de-oxygenated your eyes become. This makes you work even harder to focus harder. I don't think it should become work, just "watch" the front sight. Blink. Breath. And run your same rhythm at a slower more relaxed pace. Your rifle is the one who's dedicated to doing most of the work. It's simply your job to hold it up, hold it still, aim it, and pull the trigger. You only do that once. Each shot is just that- one shot, don't worry about the last shot or the next shot. Just let the one shot happen.

Your dilema has buggered me for years and I have just recently in the past couple of years really understood what the old timers were trying to tell me. I was listening, but I wan't understanding. I've heard folks from Bullseye to Benchrest to Service Rifle have the same concerns- they just swear they do better whilest firing rapidly. Sure their results show it, but the logic just don't jive. If a person can shoot well quickly- how come they can't shoot better slowly? Say it again out loud if you have to: If a person can shoot well quickly- how come they can't shoot better slowly? Definitely a cause for study of one's methods, huh?

 

[JohnKSa]

Last time at the range, the best group I shot at 15 yards was 5 shots into 7/8's of an inch. It wasn't one of the slowfire groups I shot trying to evaluate the new gun's accuracy, it was some of my rapidfire practice where I was shooting as rapidly as I could get a good sight picture before triggering the next shot.

Along those same lines, one of the best handgun groups I've ever fired was a 9 shot group at the end of a shooting session. I had 9 rounds left and didn't want to take it home. I ran the target out to 25 yards and shot it 1 handed, fairly quickly, not really making much effort to bear down for maximum accuracy--just trying to get a good sight picture before I fired each shot. It was under an inch.

Admittedly, I'm talking about handgun shooting, but the basic principles are the same.

What it comes down to is that shooting accurately is not a complicated proposition. Putting the sights/reticle on the target and pulling the trigger while keeping them there is very simple. What makes good results hard to achieve is our own reflex system which absolutely hates the idea of loud noises, flashes and things jumping around right in front of our eyes/faces. Our reflex system is designed to protect important assets--especially the eyes, head and face. Blast, recoil and flash are all danger signals and the reflex system is going to do whatever it can to keep those things from causing damage. That means blinking, flinching and other reflexive actions.

So the hard part of shooting isn't shooting. The hard part of shooting is controlling your own built-in self-protection system which is sure that it's saving your life by causing you to blink or flinch everytime it anticipates blast/flash/recoil.

Sometimes, relaxing and just shooting can fool that system into complacency for awhile and the results can really surprise you.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

In my experience, the more rounds put down range the less difference there is between rapid and slow fire. If you get your body programmed to do it right you can do it right at any speed sort of thing.

Not that I'm there yet.

 

[30Cal]

You get into a rhythm and there's less thinking going on to get in the way of the important stuff. Sometimes it works, but when it doesn't it turns into a trainwreck.

There's a match at Camp Perry nicknamed "the rattle battle". You need to be getting about 25 rds downrange in 50 seconds, so you start squeezing before the the target is even visible and the rifle never stops moving. Not bad for 600yds with iron sights in a hurry...

 

[B.L.E.]

So the hard part of shooting isn't shooting. The hard part of shooting is controlling your own built-in self-protection system which is sure that it's saving your life by causing you to blink or flinch everytime it anticipates blast/flash/recoil.

I find that blowing-your-score-with-a-bad-shot anxiety can also make me flinch and when I have this problem, I can flinch with a .22 or an air rifle.

I do a lot of muzzleloading matches and there is this one match called the Longhunter's match. 15 shots at a three animal paper target shot offhand in one 30 minute relay. There's no time to aim and aim and aim, you gotta put that gun up there and shoot and then run to the loading bench to reload. I don't even look through the spotting scope.
I used to do this match as a throwaway match just to loosen up and calm down and get my confidence up for my serious matches, and incidentally, shot some pretty good scores in it.

 

[jephthai]

Wow! Some fantastic replies. Thanks for the wisdom...

Also, what is your breathing and blinking doing? The longer you go between breaths and blinks- the more de-oxygenated your eyes become. This makes you work even harder to focus harder. I don't think it should become work, just "watch" the front sight. Blink. Breath. And run your same rhythm at a slower more relaxed pace.

This comment makes perfect sense to me. I do feel like the longer I stare at that sight picture, waiting for "things" to happen, my breaths and blinks become less consistent from one shot to the next.

What makes good results hard to achieve is our own reflex system which absolutely hates the idea of loud noises, flashes and things jumping around right in front of our eyes/faces. Our reflex system is designed to protect important assets--especially the eyes, head and face. Blast, recoil and flash are all danger signals and the reflex system is going to do whatever it can to keep those things from causing damage. That means blinking, flinching and other reflexive actions.

OK, that makes perfect sense too. I don't blink or flinch at all during the rapid string, but that definitely does happen if my slow routine "goes south".

Sometimes, relaxing and just shooting can fool that system into complacency for awhile and the results can really surprise you.

I keep forgetting that this is a sport, like any other that requires physical performance. I've experienced the same thing in tennis -- the more you concentrate on your technique, the worse you perform. My Dad used to joke that the cruelest thing to do to an opponent who's "in the zone" is to ask, "What's it like to be in the zone?" By thinking about it, you break the spell.

--

Thanks guys, this is awesome stuff!

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[B.L.E.]

In the pool hall, a guy I played against used to say "if you think long, you think wrong".

A lot of it is frame of mind. You have to have a positive "I bet I can hit that" frame of mind and not the negative "I better not miss" frame of mind.

I have done some of my best shooting when there was a song stuck in my head.

 

[Slamfire]

If you are breaking position between shots slow fire you are getting inaccuracy due to a changing position.

You will see this if you ever shoot small bore prone. I no longer break position between each shot, instead load the action with the rifle still in my shoulder. Breaking position changes POI for the same sight setting.

 

[jephthai]

If you are breaking position between shots slow fire you are getting inaccuracy due to a changing position.

You will see this if you ever shoot small bore prone. I no longer break position between each shot, instead load the action with the rifle still in my shoulder. Breaking position changes POI for the same sight setting.

Thanks for the insight. I did have the pleasure of learning about that issue earlier. I discovered that with my first bipod (a 9-13, I think) I was very uncomfortable, and I would shift around between shots. When I switched to a 6-9", that changed, and I'm able to keep everything intact between shots. I'm sure if I was shooting High Power it would be much more significant, what with the sling and everything.

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[4EVERM-14]

An important factor in rapid fire accuracy is the Conditioned Response. The Condition is seeing Your perfect sight picture. What you feel is correct. The Response is your trigger finger moving to the rear without conscious effort. This occurs because your sub-conscious has learned this sequence of events and takes over. Everyone has aimed at their target and suddenly the gun discharges seemingly without thinking of pulling the trigger. Usually resulting in a good shot. During rapid fire the sub-conscious sees the correct sight picture and takes the action it has been trained to do. In slow fire the process is sometimes interrupted because you always feel that you think you can improve on the sight picture. The little delay between actually seeing the perfect picture and then intentionally making the finger move is enough to open the group or have a wide shot.
We call practice but it's really Sub-conscious Training.

 

[jephthai]

An important factor in rapid fire accuracy is the Conditioned Response. . . . In slow fire the process is sometimes interrupted because you always feel that you think you can improve on the sight picture. The little delay between actually seeing the perfect picture and then intentionally making the finger move is enough to open the group or have a wide shot.

Funny you should say it that way... this morning I was talking to a co-worker about it. It's his opinion that the slow "squeeze until the trigger break surprises you" idea is a useful teaching tool to get beginners to learn sensitivity on the trigger, but that as you mature, it is no longer necessary. He argued, similarly to you, that once you have "learned" the right action, the sub-conscious is better at doing it consistently than to continue to subject it to a conscious thought process.

I think I need to do some dry fire practice that's pointed at drilling a smoother, quicker trigger pull and see if that has an enduring positive effect on my accuracy.

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