Monster .300 Cartridges

F

Futo Inu

New member
My thoughts on .30-.378 Wby Mag, .300 Dakota, and now the .300 Rem Ultra Mag, are that these are of very little utility, and are only successful because of machismo and the average Joe's desire for the highest velocity ("My gun's shoots bullets faster than your gun, man"). Really, once you get past about 300 Win Mag in case capacity, you get big-time diminishing returns, don't you? In other words, more and more cost/recoil/gun size, but with less and less increased marginal performance, which is really not needed anyway unless you actually snipe human beings for a living or something - even then, if you're actually shooting out that far, you need to go up to a bigger caliber anyway and shoot 8mm, .338 or bigger for those ranges, don't you. I guess the succint term for these cartridges is "inefficient". So tell me, do any of you "serious" shooters use these calibers, or do you stick to 308/300 sav/30-06, or perhaps the win mag or norma mag, by and large? Seems to me that when the cartridge case gets that big, you'd be better off, for most all hunting purposes, pushing a 250 grain .338 bullet with an outstanding BC, and close to being as fast. And if you don't need a bullet that big, then tell me something the win mag cannot do on smaller game?

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited December 23, 1999).]
 
Futo,

The word is "succinct". Not succcint, sounds like something you would do to a penny. (paybacks a medevac) :)

In answer to your question - If you look at the velocity gains and the corresponding flatness of trajectory, the .300 Win Mag does not make much sense. If I want a big .30, the .300 Remington gives you a decisive advantage. (as does the .30-.378)

You also raise a very valid point. The .340 Weatherby or Dakota (=) have more punch for about the same cost and I would prefer either of them or a .375 H&H.

A good friend did some interesting momentum comparisons using the IPSC power ratings. (velocity x bullet weight divided by 1000) The heavy .30s are really outclassed by the .340 with a 250 grain bullet and the .375 is not very far ahead. Time for bed here, or I'd do the math for a comparison.

I've stuck with the .30-06 and my next caliber is a .375 H&H.

Giz

[This message has been edited by Gizmo99 (edited December 22, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Gizmo99 (edited December 22, 1999).]
 
. You are putting up the same argument that 45/70 shooters did against the 30/06. The value of any big case 30 is flatness of trajectory. The flatter a rifle shoots the easier it is to hit. If you put forward the argument that you should use the least powerful cartridge to do the job I ask "Why" As for as using the 338 for long range I say bring it and your money and I will go up against you with a 300. And as far as the 375 is concerned it is a short range rifle that shoots like a rainbow .
 
Gale,
Do you think there is an upper limit on cartridge development for a particular caliber? Or is it an advancing science always? I guess what I'm asking, do you think there is a point where you can't advance a cartridge's development, even with new powders, bullets, primers, etc? Not necessarily for commercial development but perhaps only for personal satisfaction. Also have you ever gotten to the point where you thought it couldn't get any better or was there always the thought process going in the back of your mind on how to make it better?
 
Futo--

Okay, I have a .300 Win Mag, and if they made the .30-375 in factory with easily attainable brass and dies in my rifle, I'd have one of those, too. So what the case is inefficient? The heavier bullet leaves the muzzle faster. Where's the detriment? Why do I want the heavier bullet to leave the muzzle faster? Because wind is less of a factor at higher velocities, and drop is less of a factor, and it's more likely to hit where I point it at longer, unknown ranges. No, I really can't appreciate the difference at 100-yd or even 300 yard matches. But try tagging something at about 500 yards +/- 50 yds, and you're going to see the difference. I like my 180g .30 cal at 3100 fps, but I really can't honestly say I wouldn't like it a whole lot better at 3600. Otherwise, why not just go back to Krags?

Respectfully,
L.P.
 
It seems to me there's a bit more to it than which is most effective on game. From reading, most of the "Super .30s" are used for other purposes, such as targets at long ranges. Sorta like the Big .50 stuff.

A lot of it depends on the shooter. My arthritis in my shoulder makes my '06 the upper limit for me, now--and I probably would be a bit more comfortable with the .243. "But," he grinned, "I got my own ego..." And at the end of an ever-decreasing number of miles of walking, I can tell you that a nine-pound rifle is 40 pounds heavier than a seven-pound rifle!

I think it's obvious that higher velocity means flatter trajectory and less windage, so one's useful range is extended--whether for target or the hunt.

Some experiments at Frankford Arsenal, many years ago, showed that the velocity of the wave-propagation of gunpowder is around ten thousand feet per second. I believe they maxed out with a 10-grain bullet at around that velocity.

I gay-rawn-tee you Ol' Watashi ain't gonna shoot no field rifle which tosses a 180-grain bullet out the muzzle at 10,000!!! :) Sic'em, Long Path!
 
Ok, thanks for the input. I'm now enlightened. I see the utility in a really really flat trajectory. But I didn't realize higher vels equated to less wind drift (at least beyond negligible amount). I thought it only improved trajectory and energy. I thought wind drift's only significant component was bullet weight.
 
Well i think You can kill anything in the lower 48 with a 30-06 and the right load..

and if you are target shooting/shooting long range.. thereare a WHOLE BUNCH of guys who won using 30-06's and 308's

If I want a bigger gun than a 30-06 i'd buy a 375 (and I plan on it) why??

Try FINDING ammunition for a 338/30-375/376 steyr/340 dakota or other such "new" cartridge on the shelf in most countries in the world.
the 375 has been around almost as long as the 30-06 and one could argue (as far as sporting rifles go) that its the most successful cartridge ever.

You want a gun that will kill damn near any game on earth from a dik-dik to a narwhal?? use a 375. So what if it drops like a rock after 300 yards... do you normally shoot that far? Its relativly low pressure won't blast smaller game into steaming chunks of hamburger.. the bullet will just go right through like a 375 caliber solid, provided you hit the vitals the critter will drop.

if you want a LONG RANGE gun and don't mind rolling your own and playing bob the ballistics expert.. build whatever wildcat you want.. but if you want a good long range gun out of the box (so to speak) a 30-06 or 300 winchester is plenty.

You want to stop rhinos, dinosaurs and body -armor wearing grizzly bears on pcp? Get a 416. With a THICK recoil pad.

;)

Dr.Rob
 
Futo Ino: The distance something moves is a function of how long a force is applied. So, the less time a bullet takes to reach a target, the less time the wind has to push on it.

For instance, comparing a friend's 20" barrelled .308 with some kind of South American ammo, vs my .30-'06 and 26" barrel with fairly hot handloads: At 400 yards and a 15 mph wind from nine o'clock, I was holding almost one foot less windage allowance with my gun, vs. his'n. For the 150-grain bullets, I'm guesstimating I had a 400 ft/sec advantage with my rig.

Doctor Rob: "You're right, but irrelevant." It's a niche-thing in our sport, just like bench-rest shooting or siloueta...

:), Art
 
As Gale McMillan said, flatness of trajectory makes it easier to connect. I hunt elk with a 30-338 that shoots sub-minute of angle groups. The rifle is topped off with a a Swarovski scope with a 30mm tube. For years I hunted with a Steyr Mannlicher Professional rifle in 30-06 with a Leupold 3-9 scope. Before that I used a Remington model 700 in 30-06 with a 2-7 Burris scope.

I have killed more elk with the 30-06 than any other caliber. However, I do believe flat shooting rifles with great optics offer a very real advantage to the serious big game hunter. I don't care to go much beyond the 30-338 (308 Norma equivalent) but there are a good number of guides and outfitters who hunt open country who are using the 30-378 with the Shepard scopes or other "rangefinding" type scope.

Having said all of that, my dealer friends tell me they sell most of the 300 Ulta Mags, 7mm STW and so on to new shooters who have no business shooting beyond 200 yards anyway. Seems the more experienced and seasoned shooters are sticking with the 300 Win Mag and '06.
 
Having been a wildcatter for 50 years I can tell you that we were way out in front of powder development for many years. Cases which were unsuccessful a few years ago have been given new life with the new powders as well as the super big cases. What a waste they would be using 4350 which was the slowest available for a long time. If we could develop a 30 cal rifle that would shoot a 165 gr. Bullet 5000 feet per second and only had a barrel life of 200 rounds you would find it in my gun safe That is sometimes called fool hardy but I like to call it progress.
 
Mac-
For me, I'd call it fool-hardy. For you to get such a rifle, I'd just have to call it nifty. I't be fun, but don't you imagine you'd be doing the most elaborate bore-sighting you've ever done in your life, to sight it in?! :)
 
Don't know if this should be another posting but I was just reading through my latest SAR during my lunch break last night. Speaking of different cartridges has anyone read about the new cartridge in development? It's Finnish, called the M/2030. Has a subsonic full-caliber application at around 1000 fps mv and a hypersonic sabot application of 4900 - 5000 fps mv. One application uses a plastic case and the other uses a brass case. This cartridge has some novel and some well-established design concepts. The most novel idea is useing a countersunk base in the cartridge case. It would use a long chamber for firing. The extractor would grab the brass from the inside instead of grabbing the outside of the rim. It's an extremely interesting article and has some photos of the cartridge.
Gale, this looks like something that may be up your alley.
 
A .30cal 200gr at 2100fps has killed everything in the world. A 30Krag, .308, 30-06, etc. should do anything with the right bullet & placement. Trajectory's nothing to brag about & I certainly wouldn't want to go against dangerous game with such but it'll still get the job done.

The "blistering .30s" do offer some advantages as covered above.

That said, shooter-types are constant tinkerers & are always on the look out for the "next best thing." From the .009" benchrest groups, JD Jones's (& ilk) hand cannons to the latest barnburners ... just fun to do (which is reason enough) & some developments actually stand the test of time.
 
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