Model 14 vs Model 686

Jeryray

New member
OK, I am going nuts. One photo shows my model 14 groups well with 148g SWC.
my reloads using SWC both 125 or 158 do NOT group with this model 14.

The other photo shows a model 686 with factory loads and my reloads grouped just below.

An old time at the range told me it has to do with model 14 rifling.

I have tried various load and get intermittent results with the model 14.
The 686 is pretty consistent with my various loads. Different OAL and loads did not make much difference.

I am stumped??
 

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JeryRay, you're comparing your reloads to factory loads? You really can't compare the model 14 to the model 686....two different guns. One is a .38Spl and the other is a .357mag. There's just too many factors that can make a gun shoot good or bad. I own both guns and they both shoot very well. There's a lot to reloading that can make guns shoot better or worse. Often times one powder won't work as well in one as the other and sometimes one bullet/powder combo won't work in one gun but will work in the other. Are you using .38Spl cases in both guns? You need to measure the base of the bullets you're using to see if they are the right diameter. I've bought cast bullets from one source that simply never shot well, and gotten the supposedly same bullet from another source and it shot great. Bullet size, lube, powder, etc are all variables and so is the gun you're shooting them out of. Sometimes one gun just shoots better than another one. My 14 shoots very good, but I've owned three 686's (actually one was a 586, the blue version) and they all shot fantastic. Work with each gun as an individual and get the best you can out of it. You may end up with one gun that simply shoots better than the other. All guns aren't equal.
 
I am using starline nickel cases, CCI primers. I have some federal primers coming for the 686. It does not always fire CCI in DA, after the trigger job I did.
 
Maybe it will make you feel better.

I have a 9mm. My hand loads are ok, but nothing great. Most factory is a bit better but again not great.

Now you might think its me, but my normal load in it is Remington GS.

It pulls a B eye with the factory GS each time.

I can't afford to shoot them much but that gun just loves it.

My brother managed to get some GS bullets (its a bore rider type and virtually impossible to find) and I can't load those the same either.

What I have is a gun with very expensive tastes owned by a poor guy.
Kind of like Elisabeth Taylor being married to a ditch digger.

Go figure.
 
What kind of 148 grain SWC is it? What is the diameter of the 148 grain bullet. What is the diameter of throats on the 14 and 686?

There are a lot of variables at play. When using lead bullets it's much more important to make sure the bullet fits the throats and the groove diameter of the barrel.

I'd guess the 148 grain bullets are swaged wadcutters and probably a slightly larger diameter than the other bullets.
 
The Full wads are 30 year old Hornadays.

I just ordered some Berrys 14 wc plated.

Want to see if it's the lead fitting into the barreling, just an experiment.

Barrel could be worn, but not sure.

I'll measure the 148 g I have.
 
Could be the smaller powder space underneath the 148's is giving you better ignition consistency. Try a magnum primer with the 125's and see if that improves the grouping any? Also, 125's are short, so they can tilt more on their way and into the forcing cone. Jacketed bullets can usually straighten themselves out doing this, but lead tends to swage into the bore at its angle of entry, and if that angle is much, it will unbalance the bullet, moving its center of gravity off the bore centerline and opening groups up.

The 130's grouping a little above the 125's is normal. Handgun groups rise with bullet weight because, for a given average pressure during firing, they take longer to clear the muzzle, letting recoil lift it a little more before they leave. Bullet weight normally has much more effect on vertical point of impact (POI) in handguns than changes in powder charge do, but raising the charge will also elevate POI a little. This is because, while an increase in charge increases the recoil elevating the muzzle, the barrel time is getting shorter. It just doesn't get proportionally shorter. It's shorter in rough proportion to the square root of the difference in force. It would be exact, but increasing charge also increases total ejecta mass, so the increase is a little bit more than the square root of pressure change.

There are tuning steps that can improve revolver handling of the shorter bullets. Some like a 5° forcing cone angle instead of 11°. Getting all the chamber diameters uniform can help. Getting the alignment of the chambers with the bore perfect by shimming the bolt position can help. If your wadcutters were hollow base, you may have a bore constriction where it screws into the frame that the hollow base skirt is blowing out to compensate for after the bullet goes through it, in which case the constriction needs to be lapped out.
 
OK, get it. The 686 will be for the 480 matches and will not see 148wc.

It's the model 14 I am trying to make accurate with the same loads as for the 686. Guess that will not happen. I will try the plated wc when I get them to see if it's the lead rifling better.
 
Jeryray, get some 231 and some Bullseye and try those powders in your model 14. The 148 SWC is a great bullet in that gun. I've used 160g SWC's in mine with great results also. Good luck.
 
"...to make accurate with the same loads as for the 686..." Highly unlikely that will ever happen regardless of the bullet weight or anything else. You have to work up the load for each firearm.
How old is the M14? The possibility exists that its barrel and forcing cone are worn.
 
Model 14-3 is from 1970

Tried to get a barrel, gunsmith sent back anything sent to him.
Think he tried numrich (gun parts)
I went through 3 hammers before I got on that did not have a worn sear causing push off.
 
"...to make accurate with the same loads as for the 686..." Highly unlikely that will ever happen regardless of the bullet weight or anything else. You have to work up the load for each firearm.

While this is true, I have found that a load that is extremely accurate in one firearm is still relatively accurate in any of my others that use the same ammo. IOWs, while I do tailor loads for individual guns, the load that shoots the best in my P.C. 629 Magnum Hunter, also works very well in my Ruger 77/44. Well enough that I use the same ammo in both. Some guns are just not as accurate as others. As the OP said, it could very well be the rifling process. My experience has been that modern 686s are consistently, extremely accurate once the barrels are broken in. This comes from buying several new 686s in the last few years for both me and my boys. They digest almost any decently produced ammo and seem to shoot all of it accurately. I have had some other .357s that regardless of how much I played with different ammo, different bullet weights and powder/powder charges, never have matched the accuracy of the 686s.
 
OK, understood.

Made some 4 different type of loads 148 HBWC, 125 SWC, with CCI, With Fed primers.

This week I will try them out.

Thanks
 
My 14-3 shooting Hornady HBWC with 2.8 grains of Bullseye is a laser tack driver. My 686 does not shoot them as well though.
 
Updates. The 686 fires all rounds with federal primers. So that's solved.

Next the 686 fires the 125g 3.6 load close to factory loads for accuracy.

Now onto the 14-3

The same bullets in my 14-3 is not nearly as good.

Tried 148 g HBW 2.7 Bullseye in the 14-3 dean on.
Then tried same 148 g HBW Berrys jacketed 2.7G and they are loose, not good at all.

Since the 14-3 does shoot Remington factory loads pretty well.
Who makes a fmj bullet that's not plated. Perhaps that's my problem with the 14-3?
 
OK, I am going nuts. One photo shows my model 14 groups well with 148g SWC.
my reloads using SWC both 125 or 158 do NOT group with this model 14.

The other photo shows a model 686 with factory loads and my reloads grouped just below.

An old time at the range told me it has to do with model 14 rifling.

I have tried various load and get intermittent results with the model 14.
The 686 is pretty consistent with my various loads. Different OAL and loads did not make much difference.

I am stumped??
The classic target load meant to be shot from the wonderful Model 14 is a 148 gr. LWC or LHBWC on top of 2.5 grains of Bullseye.

The closer you get to that tried and tested load, the tighter your groups will be. No surprise your 148 gr, load on top of 2.7 grains of BE prints a tight group.
 
RC20 said:

Now you might think its me, but my normal load in it is Remington GS.

[...]

I can't afford to shoot them much but that gun just loves it.

Off topic (sorry...) but I've gotten a lotta GS from http://www.sgammo.com

I've paid $15 for 25 and around $25 for 50. SG has good prices, ships quickly and really good people. Sam (owner) will help all he can. Check them out.
 
I own both but have never fired anything in the M14 other than 148 grain wadcutter reloads. The M686, on the other hand, shoots the wadcutters just as accurately as the M14 does. I've also killed deer with the 686 using JHP .357 ammo. That marvelous 686 shoots just about anything into tiny groups. The M14 puts wadcutters into a single hole at 30 yards.
 
Your “problem” is why I reload and also why loading is so much fun. Everytime I get a new gun, especially .38/.357 which I shoot the most, I try it out with 148gr WC Plated and Swaged Lead and a few 158gr bullets which are Plated HP, Cast SWC and HyTek Coated SWC. Once I get an idea which bullet the gun seems to like the best, then I play around with powder. It never fails to amaze me how much difference the right load makes in the accuracy. Some like em heavy while some like it light.
 
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